Ich

[kcfehring]

Well, I think I have lost another fish. I can not find one of my clown fish this morning. I am hoping to find some type of copper treatment today to administer to the rest of my fish (coral beauty, clown fish, lawnmower blenny). I am a little concerned because I will not have any algae in the qt tank and I haven't ever seen the blenny eat any of the prepared food I have put in the display tank.

Well, thank you all for all of your input.

[Serra]

Kim-
Try blanching a small head of broccoli in the microwave for about a minute then rubber-band it to a rock or use a clip if you have it. See if the the lawnmower blenny will eat that. Don't leave rock in there long or it will absorb meds.

Soak tiny bites of Nori in water and try that.

[TulsaReefer]

Or get a scrap piece of PVC pipe, and wrap it with Nori, then rubber band it in a couple places. If it doesn't want to sink well enough, weigh it down. Don't leave it in too long (not days, more like hours) as it will go bad, but if you are persistent and keep putting it in there the blenny may learn to eat it. And if you want a few places for your fish to hide, go grab a few various PVC fittings, "T"s and others, the larger ones, toss them in and they can hide and sleep in those. They don't absorb meds, are non-toxic, and are cheap... Great for QT or hospital tanks.

[dugg]

Those PVC pieces just may absorb copper if you use it. I would mark any PVC you use in the QT so they never get used by mistake when plumbing a reef. Absolutly anything that comes into contact with copper, right down to the tank should NEVER be used in a reef ever again. Be careful about cross contaminating when using copper. I would even dip my fish and a container of tank water between the QT and display when it's time to return them to the display. Copper does not go away over time. Anything that has copper contact is still contaminated 20 years from now.

[dugg]

That especially goes for the net you use. Once it's touched the copper treated water it can't be dipped into the display. I personally don't care what copper cures, i will never bring another bottle of it in my house, muchless near a tank ever again.

[TulsaReefer]

The reason to use PVC is that isn't not calcium based (like many rocks). Calcium based items (rock or sand) will absorv copper and make it hard to treat a tank with the proper level of copper. That's why most recommend using PVC is you want to put something in the treatment tank. If you are worried about it absorbing copper, then throw it out when your done. It's cheap enough that it's hardly something to worry about. The goal is to provide some type of cover without it being something that will throw off the copper treatment.

If copper is this toxic, then what keeps the copper from leaching out of the fish? They must absorb some of it as well, and would tend to leach that out over time wouldn't they?

[kcfehring]

I thought that there was one type of copper that after you had treated the fish you could put your carbon back in your pump and it would pull all the copper out of the water. THat wouldn't help the net of course. I'll remember that and buy a new net just for my reef! Thanks for the advice...I might not have thought of that.

After treating these fish I had planned on using the tank for a qt tank for any other fish, inverts, etc. that I was going to put in my tank. Are you saying that even if I dump all of the water out and clean the tank and pvc pieces I can't use it again?

[jprince58]

That's right...sorta...Kim. You can't use it for anything, but fish. The copper will leach out of the silicone (and some other things you might put in there) and harm invertebrates.

[dugg]

Anything that comes in contact with the copper will forever be toxic to inverts. I contaminated my reef once, and fought slow dieing corals for almost 2 years before i had to just junk everything and start fresh. Copper is also very stressful to fish. It does kill ich, but it woun't help the bacterial infection i don't think. Some LFS's use it in light doses to kill parasites in incoming fish, (wich is why you should never put LFS water in your tank when adding a fish) but you will be dosing quite a bit stonger. After the few thousand dollars that $3 bottle of copper ended up costing me, i just can't justify the risk myself. There are too many other treatments out there.

[dugg]

My theory on how i contaminated mine is that i caught the fish straight from the QT and dipped them straight into the display still dripping from the QT water.

That tank is now my eel tank, and still over ten years later, almost no algae grows in that tank. The way i do water changes on it, it should be solid algae lol. It's a 20g tank with a golden tail eel that is close to 30" long and eats a whole raw jumbo shrimp every 3 days. It get a 5 gallon change about once a month, and that is usually the water i just pulled out of my reef for a change there.

[TulsaReefer]

I really am a bit skeptical that from a few drops of copper dosed water added to a tank would have caused corals to waste way for the next 2 years. And I really am even more skeptical that 10 years later you'd still have a measurable copper level in the tank.

But I am no copper expert, or an expert on copper removal. There is quite a bit of info on WetWebMedia.com that covers this in detail. I'll leave it to that...

[kcfehring]

Okay, I went to wetwebmedia.com and read some of the articles on quarantine tanks. this is part of what I found.

Be sure that none of the equipment from your quarantine tank comes in contact with your main system before it has been cleaned, particularly if you were utilizing copper or other therapeutic agents in the tank. Your sponge filter or other filter media may then be sterilized and placed back in the sump of your main system to re-colonize beneficial, ready for your next new arrivals.

So to my understanding he is saying that I can use the tank and pvc again as long as it is cleaned (bleach solution?). I would of course get a new biowheel filter and net, but don't you think that a thorough cleaning and new water would allow me to use the tank to qt inverts and corals after the cleaning?

[Serra]

I have used copper in my q tank and then later set it up as a nano reef with no problems...just some softies. I nuked it, changed out the water then ran carbon then "BAM" reef tank.

I am now running a light mixture of Clorox and water thru my python between all my tanks. Dipping all nets and glass cleaners, etc. Anyone know the ratio of H2O using the smallest amt. of Clorox that would still kill any and everything?

Don't tell me to get a set of everything for each tank. I have 8. I don't have the space to keep that much stuff.

[kcfehring]

nuked it? What does that mean? When we nuke something at my house it means we microwave it...don't think my microwave will hold an aquarium lol!

[jprince58]

Originally posted by kcfehring
So to my understanding he is saying that I can use the tank and pvc again as long as it is cleaned (bleach solution?).

If you were utilizing filter sponges, etc., in a QT with hyposalinity or almost anything **EXCEPT** copper, I'd say yes. Once you've introduced the copper, I'd be exceptionally careful about putting things like filter sponges (even after being "nuked") back in the display sump. Besides, chlorine bleach does bad things to some foam sponges...it will destroy (sometimes quickly; others over time) the molecular bonds of the foam material and they'll disintegrate. If you have to bleach a sponge, you're probably better off just buying a new one.

[dugg]

You can be skeptical all you want, but i sure can't figure any other reason why algae doesn't grow in that tank other than the copper that soaked into the silicone. Even when i put macro in there it dies, and snails and crabs disapear within a week of being put into that tank. I use lights of america bulbs over thet tank, so i know it's not a lighting issue.

It doesn't have to be a measurable amount of copper to kill inverts. If you want to test just how toxic copper is to plant life, just go out and drive the smallest copper nail you can find into a huge tree, and see if that tree isn't dead within a year.

[jprince58]

Originally posted by dugg
It doesn't have to be a measurable amount of copper to kill inverts.

I've read some anecdotal accounts of a penny dropped in a tank being enough to destroy invertebrate life. Even though modern-day pennies are actually only copper clad and the copper isn't in a soluble form, as the story goes, they'll nuke (there's that word again) the tank. Is there any truth to that? I doubt that's an urban legend that Snopes covers.

[kcfehring]

Well, both of our clowns died. We are now down to just the lawnmower blenny and the coral beauty. They are in the quarantine tank with the first dose of cupramine. The blenny seems to be doing okay...no heavy breathing anyway. The coral beauty is hiding in the pvc so I can't tell how she is doing. We did have to tear our whole display down and I hate re-aquascaping! LOL But, I feel it was the best way to go for any future fish we plan to add to our tank after the first of the year.

I am going to add some food to the tank wiith chopped up garlic and see if I can get the coral beauty to come out and eat. She did eat last night so I am hopeful that these two will survive. Thanks everyone for all your help and advice.

[Serra]

Keep an eye on the ph and temp in that small tank. Make sure it is well aerated.

[oddballs]

we have corals in tanks that i know have had copper in them and i havent ever seen any adverse effects that i know of? i wish that the algae wouldnt grow in them!!!lol.

[dugg]

Originally posted by oddballs
we have corals in tanks that i know have had copper in them and i havent ever seen any adverse effects that i know of? i wish that the algae wouldnt grow in them!!!lol.

Yes, but you don't keep them in those tanks long term, and then if they die months after someone buys them, there is no way of knowing if it was the copper they were exposed to in your tanks, or thier current tank conditions. Pretty irresponsible IMO.

[Serra]

Now duggypooh, don't be mean. I have all kinds of critters living in my little nano, and they have been for 6 months. Not that I recommend putting any copper in my tanks but it seems it doesn't zap everything within months.

Scott, owner of Oddballs, is a very knowledgeable and up-front shop owner. I am like him though...it gets rid of algae?!!!

[dugg]

Not trying to be mean. That was about as nice as i could think to say it. For a shop owner to knowingly place corals in a tank that has been exposed to copper IMO is irresponsible at best. It's not like the effects of copper to inverts is something that is unknown. Anyone can do a search and find website after website that will tell you that copper is toxic to inverts and that all measures should be taken to avoid contamination in a reef setting. I have never met Scott, and i'm sure he is a nice person, but that doesn't make exposing corals that are intended for sale to the public to something that is well documented as toxic to them any better.

[dugg]

As far as the algae goes, i do get somewhat normal algae growth on the glass in that tank. I have to clean it maybe once a month. The algae that does grow in that tank is always brown, red, or black. I always put the cheato that i harvest from my sump over there to help with nitrates, but it always just dies within a few weeks, and it is always full of pods and worms when i put it in there. I have never seen any pods or worms in the tank other than in the cheato when it first goes in, and there is nothing in that tank to eat them. It should be absolutely loaded with pods and worms, but there are none.

[scott0615]

Dugg....my friend, you need a chemistry lesson - please don't give advice based strictly on speculation.