Ich

[kcfehring]

Okay, I think that my six line wrasse may have ich. This evening for the first time I noticed what looked like little white spots all over her body and fins. This is the first time I have noticed it and I look at all my tank inhabitants many times a day. Right now she is eating fine, is not scratching on rocks, and her eyes are fine. (These are other things that I read may be symptoms of ich)

I am in the process of setting up a hospital tank. Bare bottom, pvc for hideing and hob filter. I have only had this fish for about a week...and no I did not quarentine her. I know you can take me out and flog me later, it can not be any worse than what I have been doing to myself this evening. I always thought that a q/t tank was being a little too paranoid and alot of needless work, however now that I am facing taking down all my rock work to catch the little fish I have a wonderful new view on the whole q/t tank.

So now I have a fes questions.

1. Do I need to do anything to my display tank once I get the fish out? I am sure I will need to do a water change, but do I need to vacuum my sand, scrub rock, put anything in the water? I read that fish that have ich will sometimes rub up agains rocks and that cysts will fall into the sand bed...does something need to be done about that?

2. Would it be best just to give the fish the garlic soaked food and lots of water changes with low salinity or do I need some type of antibiotic or copper or something like that.

3. How is it passed and should I be looking for any other type of symptoms for my other fish?

Thanks

[eddybabyhd]

ICH lives in the sand, chances are it is already in there. There are many methods to keeping it at bay, but the best is by far to quarantine your fish before placing them in the display

[mskohl]

do you have corals or inverts in this tank?

[kcfehring]

Yes, I have two pocillipora, some mushrooms, zoos, a few leathers, bubble coral, rbta, polyps, two shrimp, starfish, snails, hermits, feather dusters, etc. I am just sick! I really hope that I can get this under control. I will be working on this most of the morning so I can use all of your advice so that I can try not to make it worse. I will be staying up for awhile setting up the hospital tank and checking for your advice every few minutes. If you think it would help you can call me. Just pm me and I will give you the number.

[Travis L. Stevens]

1) Once Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) it is safest to assume that all fish in the system have ich. On the bright side, as long the fish were previously healthy, the chances are that they have successfully fought it off, but you will be running a risk for about 6-8 weeks. As you can guess, the chances that a fish will be infected again in that 6-8 weeks is pretty high, so you might as well remove all fish. Now that it is in the system, all non-fish, non-water column items (rocks, sand, pumps, etc) can now hold the transitional stage of the parasite. Usually in the sand and rock. My suggestion is to remove all fish from the display tank into a QT, treat in seperate hospital tank, and leave the display tank fallow (no fish) for 6-8 weeks in order to starve out all those resilient parasites.

2) Feed them garlic soaked foods will help. You can keep them in hyposalinity in the Qt tank, and treat with copper or malachite green in a seperate hospital tank (which can be a bucket with an airstone)

3) Marine Ich is a parasite. That means it needs a host to reproduce. The stages of it's life start from the substratum, then they become free swimming, they then infect fish (usually immuno-diffecient ones first [can be something as serious as a previous infection to something as simple as a stressful environment]), they reproduce and form cysts on the outside of the fish, then the cysts burt and they swim back down to the substratum. In order to break the cycle and truly cure the display tank from Ich (without using copper in the tank or risking the health of invertebrates and corals), then you have to leave the tank fallow for 6-8 weeks; the time it takes for them to die.

Read more about Marine Ich here:
Part 1 - http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php
Part 2 - http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-1...ture/index.php

[kcfehring]

Okay, so I take out all of the fish and put them in the qt tank. I am going to use a 20 gallon tall with a heater, biowheel HOB filter, penguin 600 powerhead, pc lighting and bare bottom. What about my sand sifting goby. Will it be too stressful for him? He shows no signs of ich as of now but even if I put in brand new sand in a tank just for him...if he has it it will just continue to cycle right?

Do I need to do hyposalinity, 50% water changes daily for two weeks and then just regular water changes for the next month, and 80-82 temp. to speed up life cycle?

Also, with all the fish out do I continue feeding and lighting cycles for the other inhabitants of the dispay tank?

Thanks

[Freed]

I concur...r

How many fish do you have in the display? How big is the QT tank going to be that you are setting up? If big enough you can house them all in there and treat all at the same time you are treating the six line. That way the main tank will be fishless and you will be erradicating any ich that is in/on the other fish as well.

Everything in the main can be kept the same. Hypo is one of the best and so is copper. You cannot do both at the same time though. Hypo is easier IMHO. Bring your water down to 1.009SG over a day or two and then keep it there by keeping your water level at the exact same level daily. See, easy huh? Using a refractometer is by far better than a hydrometer and much more accurate. With copper you have to do a lot of testing, adding, subtracting, testing, adding, etc... you get the picture, but it is very effective as well.

[Travis L. Stevens]

1) As long as the goby is eating prepared foods, you'll be fine without sand

2) The choice of treatment is yours. Read the articles I posted and figure out the best treatments to fit your methods. Hyposalinity tends to be one of the most common used methods. I would do hyposalinity and keep it the entire time the tank is fallow unless fish show signs of stress. Increasing the heat really isn't going to do much, especially since 80-82 is a pretty average temperature. Just give it ttime and let it run its course. You don't want to add too much stress to the already stressed fish. As far as water changes go, do them as regular maintenance. Basically your QT will be a FOWLR, so only worry about ammonia and nitrite, and extreme nitrate. As long as things are fine, heightened Nitrate isn't going to harm the fish much. The less the better of course.

3) For the main display tank, keep the same lighting cycle because your corals need it, and it doesn't matter to Ich. Feed the tank on occassion. Maybe once a week, just a little pinch as a treat. Other than that, most of the things in there should be pretty self-sufficient.

On a good note, leaving your tank fallow and not feeding hardly anything will give the bacteria and algae time to catch up to getting rid of most nitrates and phosphates. Of course, do a few water changes like normal.

[kcfehring]

I did read the articles but there are so many suggestions that I was just a little confused on which to try. I do not want to give anything like copper or anything like that except as a last resort. So I think I will just do thy hyposalinity with atleast 25% water changes every week on the 20 gallon.

Also, when you say FOWLR you really just mean fish only right? From what I read I shouldn't put any sand or live rock in the tank right now. Right? Also, I have a total of six fish...do you think that 20 gallon will be big enough for all of them? Coral beauty, two oscellaris, six line, diamond goby, lawnmower blenny.

[Travis L. Stevens]

1) Why not use copper? It is extremely effective in treating parasites in fish. Just use copper-based treatments in a bucket. You could even do copper based, freshwater dips in a bucket for a few minutes at a time, and then put them back in the qt to recover.

2) Ya, I meant FO. Sorry. No, don't add any sand or rock to either the QT or the display. Doing so to the display will only prolong the fallow-wait. Adding to the Qt only infects the Qt and defeats the purpose of doing so. As long as they aren't fighting, they will do fine being held in a 20g temporarily. You might want to add them slowly since each addition will start a tiny cycle.

[Serra]

Provide some nonporous cover in the q-tank for the fish. Like pieces of PVC. If you have a sick fish and throw it into a hyposalinity tank you will stress it more. Use copper at recommended doses. Do a fresh water dip before adding it to q-tank.

If you haven't read the two articles on quarantining on our comas site, please do so. The article by Shawn is very helpful. http://www.mycomas.com/content/category/4/15/87/

My article explains that this is really part of the acclamation process and a step that should not be missed. On that note, I just wiped out 4 fish by not taking my own advice. Last time I don't follow my own advice!

[jprince58]

Or you could give a product called, "Kick Ich" a shot. The purists will insist the only way to rid your tank of ich is something just short of nuclear detonation in the tank, but this stuff does actually work. I agree that removing the fish and letting the tank go fallow for a couple of months is a sure-fire way to get rid of it, but for most of us, it's not really a viable option. We gave Kick Ich a shot and haven't had any sign of ich now for well over a year.

[Serra]

Princypooh- You used that in your reef tank? What is in it?

[jprince58]

Yes, I used it in my reef tank. We have LOTS of stuff in there (softies, LPS, SPS, etc.) and there were no detrimental effects that we could see. Everything came through fine. I have no idea what's in the stuff. I'm sold, though. It sure beat destroying the tank to catch the fish and then scattering them throughout the house in buckets for two months. If I had the space (ok, so maybe I do have the space) and the budget for a full-blown laboratory grade QT system, I'd have done it differently, but I live in the real world. Of course, had I had any sense to begin with, a cheap QT tank would have prevented the whole mess.

[Serra]

After my last disaster, I will have my qt ready at all times and a few media sponges in my sump. I lost all fish in my two bedroom tanks due to cross contamination. Am at the one month point in fallow tanks...hard to take. I have a little horned blenny in my qt doing his month sentence right now. Boy he is cute!

I also will now feed and do water changes under sterile conditions. Scrub hands and arms like a surgeon between tank feedings!

Do-as-I-say, not-as-I-do-Coley

[jprince58]

I'm not certain we've learned our lesson yet. Actually, we've learned the lesson, we just don't often put that knowledge in to good use. We've been lucky, though, and I certainly don't recommend our methods to others. I'd say we're dodging the same "DAISNAID" pump impeller with you, Sheryl. Someday we'll get shredded, but for now...

[Freed]

And how long did it take for the "Kick-ich" to kill the ich? About a week or so?

[Serra]

Jeff-
I'd like to say that after you wipe out a whole tank of fish you will learn your lesson...as I did years ago. Like childbirth, you forget the pain of that so in a moment of weakness and prayer, I didn't quarintine a fish.

I have a big chunk out of my butt where that decision came back and bit me on said body part.

To quote my own article and whom ever I stole this from:

"Really this is just a part of the acclimation process and is needed to ensure the health and longevity of your fish. Acclimation involves more than merely getting fish used to water conditions: It includes helping animals recover from capture, transport and handling. The process of acclimation is not complete until the animals regain their strength, adapt to captivity, become familiar with new foods and grow accustomed to the aquarist that cares for them. When your new fish must face the stress of entering the display tank and facing his new tank mates, they will be at their peak healthiness which will enable them to finish their acclimation into captivity with the greatest ease.

[jprince58]

Originally posted by Freed
And how long did it take for the "Kick-ich" to kill the ich? About a week or so?

We started seeing positive results in a few days. The treatment period lasts a couple of weeks. I think what I would say about it, is that this is definitely NOT a treatment for a severe case of ich. This stuff takes some time to do it's job and is really not the first choice. QT is definitely the way to go, but for those times...well...it's an option.

[Freed]

Do you understand that the cycle of ich dictates that it falls off the fish after a few days to a week?

[TulsaReefer]

You also can get Crypto (marine ich) from moving rocks, sand, and corals from an infected tank into yours. While none of these are actual hosts, the encysted tomonts can be attached to almost any surface and then can be brought into the tank. They can also be free swimming in water as well, which is why it's probably a good idea to never bring water into your tank that you aren't sure of (with new fish, corals, etc.).

If you want to be ultra safe, it's probably necessary to quaranteen EVERYTHING you put in your tank for long enough to make sure that no tomonts moving in with your new additions. Since tomonts can live up to 28 days in the cyst stage of their lifecycle, the QT period needs to be at least 28 days to be absolutely safe. Fish are probably the most common method to bring crypto into the tank, but in the end it can be done by almost anything, as it's possible for almost anything to be a carrier. And while it may seem completely over the top to QT everything for basically a month, it really depends on how much you value our existing investment and livestock over what you are adding. And while it may not happen often to get crypto from a non-fish method, it's really still a roll of the dice.

[jprince58]

Originally posted by Freed
Do you understand that the cycle of ich dictates that it falls off the fish after a few days to a week?

Yes...I have a good understanding of the life-cycle.

[Freed]

So then you should also know that the only reason Kick Ich is such a "wonderful cure", is that the manufacturer/LFS is feeding off the fact that they know after you pour it into the tank the ich will disappear after a few days anyway and then you'll think amazing things have happened just because of the water you poured into the tank that was in that bottle.

[Serra]

Well said Lee. Really everything should be quarantined, inverts and corals too. I cross contaminated 2 tanks...water droplets, cleaning equipment or someway. I don't really know but it is emotionally upsetting and a hit financially to lose the money it costs to replace the fish. That's over a hundred I could have spent at the CRASE. Slapping myself silly over that one.

As you all know, I joke around a lot but this stuff is serious so learn by other's mistakes.

[Serra]

Originally posted by Freed
they know after you pour it into the tank the ich will disappear after a few days anyway

Ich magically disappears in a few days with or without treatment? I want that wand!