Think "cooking" rocks is dumb?

[snorkelmark]

No, particulates will natually accumulate in a sand bed, sure.

If they are organic in nature they will break down by natural organic decomposition, and the bacteria will take care of the cycle. Too much of it can overwhelm a system and that's what can cause the algae bloom. Lots of reasons why a sand bed can go bad - wrong choice of substate (CC), inefficient skimming, over feeding, poor circulation of water, no sand stirring animals, and even too deep a bed that creates areas that are oxygen starved, etc. Now I know the final processing of nitrates requires a special anaeroblic process void of oxygen, and attempts early in the use of DSB (circa 1995?) tried to exploit oxygen-starved areas of a DSB for this purpose, but I thnk that's a very difficult process to manage and leads in most cases to bad anaerobic areas, rotting organics, and nasty sulphur smelling bubbles leaching from the bed.

I suppose a lot of the rock-like stuff shed off of LR is - well- rock stuff. Mine looks kinda like shell particles. That can acumulate in substrate, too. It looks inorganic, so by itself is not bad (same stuff as LR) but it's kinda like laying CC on top of your DSB and creating cool places to capture detritus and thus lead to a degradation in the environment and - thus - algae growing on sand and rocks.

In the mid 90's I remember the hot topic was DSB. How to construct a DSB to create anaerobic aras to complete the nitrogen cycle. Plenums under the DSB. Circulation concerns. A very bright gentleman in Key Largo (and I believe he may have been blind) that worked at the ocean park in Key Largo did a lot of experimenting with DSB and published his results in FAMA. There was even a monthly column on the evolving topic. But most tanks with any kind of sand bed set up at that time failed because the algae took over. I'm not sure if it was because the LR was not cured well - cured LR was a staple in the hobby at that time and people still aged/cooked their rock. It could have been because most of the beds were too deep? Or it coulld have been the common practice or running water over a sump full of bio balls for a wet-dry. With great improvements in skimmer technology (not may airstone skimmers used anymore) along with the evolving practice of running a refugium with macro algae, as well as using clean up crews and sand-dwelling creatures - now one can create a very natural environment using a DSB that functions as a useful part of the entire system with no degradation in water quality over the years.

It also depends on the tolerance one has for "algae". If there were metods available to completely eradicate algae via cooking and bb, then the magnet and glass scraping product industy would slowly fade away. But even in the best systems you'll get algae occasionally on your glass. And I see the majority of tanks have some tell-tale green somewhere beit on glass, on returns or intakes, or on sand bed. But the aquarist keeping such systems is tolerant of a litle algae and as long as his or her fish prosper and thrive and his corals thrive and algae does not take over they are unconcerned about it.

Regarding a refugium - my gosh the benefits are tremendous. A great source of pods for mandarins and other fish. Macro absorbs any stray organics. You can do one cheap, too. A ten gallon tank. A MJ900 pump, even an inexpensive HD light. A quart of chaeto for $12 from eBay and for less that $60 you can have a great refugium. The benefits are enormous and I really think refugiums are the greatest "discovery" - if it can be called that - in the last 10 years.

Originally posted by Bomber
So particulates do no accumulate in a sand bed?

[Bomber]

And those particualtes skew your anaerobic to aerobic ratio.

That was Sam Gamble, and he worked for me at the time. The display tanks were run on under gravel filters. When they lost power from Hurricane Andrew, Sam noticed that nitrates went down.

plenum

[snorkelmark]

That's cool. I remember the debate over DSB and how to "magically" make them work. Man, was that complicated. At the time I just went bare bottom. I did accidentally discover one benefit of a DSB when I was setting up a bare bottom - I let a rock fall off another rock and it shattered the tempered glass in the tank ! lol

I remember buying the latest isue of FAMA in 1995 before traveling to Ft Lauderdale one time and reading all about Sam's experiments. A guy in Ft Lauderdale used to advertise a lot in FAMA; he made acrylic equipment and even invented this contraption that used distilled spirits in a system he sold that eliminated nitrates. It cost about a zillion dollars. I went to his store at the time while there on business.

One time when I was in Miami I visited the premiere LR and reef source in the country (?) - I saw their 10s's of thousands of tanks of LR and picked out some for myself and shipped it home. I then drove on down to Key Largo, rented a small boat, and went out to the reef near your park. I had intended to snorkel but the water was too cold (as I recall it was maybe March?)

Now with a refugium, a good skimmer, sand stirring animals, and good maintenence I can keep a more natural reef tank with a DSB and not have major problems with nuisance algae. Now my show tank is void of fish - it's a reef only with soft corals. I did that on purpose because I did not want the leftover food and fish poop to find any place in the sand to accumulate and rot. I am considering adding a 30 gallon bb to the system so I can keep some clown fish. That way it will be easy to remove poop and leftover food particles from the bottom. My frag tanks are all bb.

But I have never cooked rocks for months in the dark. After 4 months my tank is beautiful with a DSB and healthy corals. I just carefully chose well cured LR from my LFS. Had I gone the cooking route I would just now be thinking about setting up my tank with the cooked rock. I would have missed 4 months of fun with the reef tank and still had the same results - a priistine tank with healthy corals. I just got there 4 months sooner by choosing well cured LR rather than cooking for 4 or s months.

Basically, it all works as long as you eliminate in whatever manner possible any organics that can feed the nuisance algae. Nothing magic to that.

Originally posted by Bomber
And those particualtes skew your anaerobic to aerobic ratio.

That was Sam Gamble, and he worked for me at the time. The display tanks were run on under gravel filters. When they lost power from Hurricane Andrew, Sam noticed that nitrates went down.

plenum

[alten78]

Originally posted by Sindjin

Now... if you cook your rocks you can build a tank with hardly any shedding. Eventually stuff will build up in the rock again over the years. BUT in a BB.... it will take much longer because we can control it better by siphoning whenever we see it building up. In a DSB it just sinks into the sand.... out of site/out of mind until the algae comes...

Im not trying to sound dumb but can you guys clear up something for me?

I keep a SSB for looks. I like to think I have good husbandry by blowing off my rocks and sand on a weekly basis (allowing skimmer and filter media to collect.) I just dont see ALOT of it sinking into my sand, though im sure some does...not going to argue that at all.

I would love to cook my rock and see if there is a noticeable difference in my tank than all the work I put into it now. But how would I go about doing such as my system is small (29 gal?) I cant afford to buy a bunch of new live rock to take the place of the rock I want to cook and what would I do most of my coral?

If Im missing something obvious here just let me know, I work SQA so I have tough skin

[Bomber]

That's cool. I remember the debate over DSB and how to "magically" make them work. Man, was that complicated.

That's because for the most part, the science describes it differently.

I was setting up a bare bottom - I let a rock fall off another rock and it shattered the tempered glass in the tank

starboard

A guy in Ft Lauderdale used to advertise a lot in FAMA; he made acrylic equipment and even invented this contraption that used distilled spirits in a system he sold that eliminated nitrates. It cost about a zillion dollars. I went to his store at the time while there on business.

Steve, he had a heart attack and his brother took over for a while.

One time when I was in Miami I visited the premiere LR and reef source in the country (?) - I saw their 10s's of thousands of tanks of LR and picked out some for myself and shipped it home.

Jack, we had to bust him a few times.

I just got there 4 months sooner by choosing well cured LR rather than cooking for 4 or s months.

That's the same thing.

Merry Christmas, I have shopping to do.

[snorkelmark]

Was that in a industrial park area, and at one time was owned or partially owned by Julian Sprung? As I recall, the operation I visited had an interest in it with Julian. It was a very upscale operation - very nice offices and awesome holding/curing facility. It was not a mom-and-pop to be sure. It was like 10 years ago.

Originally posted by Bomber
[
Jack, we had to bust him a few times.

[/B]

[Sindjin]

And where does one actually find and isolate and properly identify "Snail Poop" in their tank. Honestly - how can you tell the difference between snail poop and the other stuff in your tank. I looked in my tank and there is all sorts of stuff in there (well...no algae). I could not begin to figure out what was snail poop and what was just other detritus. Now I know what mouse poop/rodent poop looks like. I know what snake and lizard poop looks like. Cows and horses, too. But snail poop? : ) Man - woudn't I have to house like thousands of snails and have virtually no circulation to get an accumulation of snail poop ? : ) lol

One can properly Isolate snail poop by observing snails pooping.
It is grayish, pellet like granules. In a BB with the right flow, you can actually have ALL detritus accumulate in one spot. Like mine. It all accumulates in the center/rear. How do I know? Because I have a white, starboard bottom. I can see under my rock as well because they are on stilts made from plastic coat hangers. There is nothing accumulating pn the bottom except for snail poop. So... I extract it with a Turkey Baster and tested the water. PO4 was 3ppm. A general test of the water column will show .06. Lucky me, I can take it OUT. You cannot differentiate snail poop from any other forms of detritus because they all blend together in the send bed.

So... why dont you get a Turkey Baster and suck a bit of sand/water out of the bottom of your tank and test it for PO4.
It would be an interesting comparison. BTW... Mike tested his "Flakes" being shed from his Live Rock and they tested 1ppm...where as the general water column tested .02. So theres your proof that the "flakes" coming from the rock will contribute to your nutrients being stored in your sand bed.

BTW,

My Turbos are the size of GolfBalls so ... their poop is much larger than the average Cerith or Astraea.

[Bomber]

Originally posted by snorkelmark
Was that in a industrial park area, and at one time was owned or partially owned by Julian Sprung? As I recall, the operation I visited had an interest in it with Julian. It was a very upscale operation - very nice offices and awesome holding/curing facility. It was not a mom-and-pop to be sure. It was like 10 years ago.

yep, they were all in cahoots

[Mike O'Brien]

Originally posted by Sindjin
One can properly Isolate snail poop by observing snails pooping.
It is grayish, pellet like granules.

This is great stuff. I love it

[Bomber]

Well my eyesight is not that good, so I just take out everything that's on the bottom of the tank.

[Sindjin]

This is great stuff. I love it

Finally...Someone gets my humor!

Funny thing is I actually DID witness it!
One of my giant Turbos...
Little gray pellet like granules.

[Mike O'Brien]

without sand you can see exactly what all the poop's look like and where these poop's came from.