What is your daily Temperature swing?

[TheCoralReef731]

During the summer : 75-83
During the winter : 78-80

[Psyire]

Wow, definately some good information here.

It seems that on average people have about a 2*F temperature swing on their systems. My original post was alittle skewed as I had said 79*F to 82*F when infact it's from 78-82 which is the correct 4 degree swing I mentioned.

I'm running a 180g tank with 3x 250w MH's and so far I don't have a chiller or fans on the top of the tank. So my next move I've decided is to see how low and constant I can keep the temperature with some fans that blow across the top of the tank.

I'd really like to lower my swing to the 2*F tolerance level. Like mentioned earlier, I also agree that stability is one of the key factors in this hobby.

I live fairly far north so I should hope I really don't need a chiller. Besides.. I think I would opt for some sort of room or house A/C first.

[jarhed]

I think you'll be amazed as I was about how much evaporative cooling works. Like I said before, I doubted the theory even after reading about it for a year on RC. I was trying to figure out how I would pay for a chiller until I put that fan on. I absolutely could not justify that expense now. Not to mention I have no idea how you guys with chillers deal with the heat output of those things. Do you all duct it out of the room/house or something?

[finneganswake]

Originally posted by greenbean36191
Coral reefs are not stable environments. They never have been and never will be. For example earlier in the week when I was checking temps, one station in the keys measured a 4 degree rise and then 3 degree fall within 2 hours.

85 is not the least bit unhealthy for reef animals. If you were to check the average temp on the reefs around the world right now, it's pretty close to that. The worldwide yearly average is even in the low eightys. If you really think people who let their tanks get into the mid 80s aren't serious reef keepers, then check a graph taken from a coral atoll in the Marshall Islands.

People recommend keeping temps lower than the mid 80s to buy more time in the event of a power outage. At lower temps it will take a lot longer for the animals to use all of their oxygen.

My main question regarding this is why all of the people I know who have used chillers have agreed that their corals thrived much better after adding the chiller and lowering the temperature into the high 70s? Better color, better growth, better polyp extension... SOMETHING has to be going on with this.

As to the current temperatures in the ocean, aren't we hearing on an almost daily basis from scientists that rising temperatures pose a major threat to the survival of the coral reefs?

[Cluckr7]

I've always had my temps in the low 80s and my corals have done well. Nothing in nature is constant - everything is ALWAYS changing and fluctuating, including sea temps. You're wrong if you think a real reef always stays a constant 76 degrees. I was at the keys this spring and the water temp went from 72 to 74 over the course of my 3 hour snorkeling trip.

[samsfishnchips]

Cluckr7,

that's right, but because is happening in nature = good?

I see that my corals "look" better when I keep the temp at constant 77,

agree 100% with finneganswake, that's why many reefs are bleaching and dying (have die), and scientist agree the issue is heat, the rise of temperatures,

sam

[funkyman]

78.5 - 82.5

[ensley]

My primary temps range from 79-83 , I have a chiller that i only use in a secondary tank because it's tooo noisy. Heat is much less an issue than my sanity. A few small fans work well. the tank with the chiller is rock solid temp wise but corals fair much worse as a result of other instabilitys. (manual ca-kh) (lazy water quality control)

[finneganswake]

Originally posted by Cluckr7
I've always had my temps in the low 80s and my corals have done well. Nothing in nature is constant - everything is ALWAYS changing and fluctuating, including sea temps. You're wrong if you think a real reef always stays a constant 76 degrees. I was at the keys this spring and the water temp went from 72 to 74 over the course of my 3 hour snorkeling trip.

I don't remember saying that oceans stay a constant 76 degrees. My main point is that EVERYONE in this hobby says that consistency in water parameters is important... then some follow that up by saying that temperature is an exception. I personally believe that keeping EVERYTHING constant is the best way to go. Sure, I could probably get charts of the seasonal temperature fluctuations from the areas that my corals come from and adjust the temperature week by week--this is actually something I plan on doing WHEN I RETIRE and have the time.

There's something I'd like to point out regarding your experience in the Keys--how many people keep Ricordea Floridas in their tank with the temperature in the 80s when you say that the temp when you were there was in the low 70s? How can this be good for the rics? Let's say that the opinion posted earlier that most corals come from areas with temps in the lower 80s (something I'm not convinced of yet) is correct. Would anyone advocate keeping their temp in the lower 90s? Of course not. Until someone can proove to me that corals like temperatures in the 80s, I'm going to play it safe and keep them at a constant 76-78 degrees. They seem to like it there.

[finneganswake]

Originally posted by ensley
I have a chiller that i only use in a secondary tank because it's tooo noisy. Heat is much less an issue than my sanity.

Seriously, though, is it an older chiller? I have a newer one and I can't even hear it over the roar of the waterflow--something that kind of eats at my (limited) sanity, since I have to crank the volume on my surround sound up to 11 to hear over it.

[Cluckr7]

This day in the keys was also in late March. The water temps in the Great Barrier Reef vary by 10 degrees throughout the course of the year.
I agree with you that consistency is important, but everything on this planet is used to some fluctuations. I'm sure there are some ocean currents that bring in lower or higher salinity waters to certain areas too. If you're nitpicking at a degree or two and saying that these types of shortrange fluctuations don't and have never occurred in nature, then I think you're 1) wrong and 2) gonna have bigger degrees of error with your measuring devices than what you're trying to maintain.
I just think that a chiller isn't a necessity for all "serious reefers", like you said it was.

[finneganswake]

Originally posted by Cluckr7
This day in the keys was also in late March. The water temps in the Great Barrier Reef vary by 10 degrees throughout the course of the year.
I agree with you that consistency is important, but everything on this planet is used to some fluctuations. I'm sure there are some ocean currents that bring in lower or higher salinity waters to certain areas too. If you're nitpicking at a degree or two and saying that these types of shortrange fluctuations don't and have never occurred in nature, then I think you're 1) wrong and 2) gonna have bigger degrees of error with your measuring devices than what you're trying to maintain.
I just think that a chiller isn't a necessity for all "serious reefers", like you said it was.

I agree with you that there is some fluctuation, and indeed, this is what occurs in my tank. 76-78 degrees is some fluctuation.

As to the error of my measuring devices, I use redundancy. I know the digital reading on temperature is always inaccurate, so I calibrate my chiller at least twice a week. Occasionally, I'll drop a second mercury thermometer in the tank to make sure they both read the same (they always do, which is why I can't stand digital thermometers, which I've seen be off by close to 3 degrees).

I'll reiterate a point I made earlier--I think this is hands down a money issue. When protein skimmers first came out and were very expensive, you had plenty of "serious reefers" who said "I've been doing this for 10 years and I don't need a skimmer--damn kids these days with their fancy flyin' machines and what not " When chillers get to the point where everyone can afford them, which should be soon since they're basically over-priced air conditioners, I doubt that you'll see any debate about them whatsoever.

[greenbean36191]

My main question regarding this is why all of the people I know who have used chillers have agreed that their corals thrived much better after adding the chiller and lowering the temperature into the high 70s? Better color, better growth, better polyp extension... SOMETHING has to be going on with this.

Sure, they bought themselves $500 worth of placebo effect and extra oxygen in case of a power outtage.

As to the current temperatures in the ocean, aren't we hearing on an almost daily basis from scientists that rising temperatures pose a major threat to the survival of the coral reefs?

Sure because at the upper limits, high temps do weaken corals, and some reefs were already pretty close to that. The same is true at the lower limits as well. Mid 80s is nowhere near the upper limit though and there is nothing at all irresponsible about keeping a reef there.

Worldwide the yearly average on the reefs is 81, and the average low temp is 76. The real fluctuation is quite a bit more than that though. Take for example, the historical data for a 13 year period in the Keys. The average August temperature range was 84-88 with at least one reading of almost 92. The average Feb. range for the same location is 72-77 with a few readings in the mid 60s. Changes like that have been going on since reefs first came about. It's nothing new. The only new thing is the maximum temps some of these reefs are reaching and I don't think anyone is advocating keeping a reef in the 90's.

If you can't keep your tank from climbing into the upper 80s or low 90s then by all means go ahead and get a chiller. On a tank that only occasionally gets that hot or just to control fluctuations, you're wasting a lot of money.

[Cluckr7]

^--- booyah says the marine biologist :P

[greenbean36191]

Dr. Ron's recent comments on the subject:

"Then what's all this fuss I always hear about keeping the temp at nearly the exact same temp?"

It is absolutely, and utterly, pre-processed male bovine food...

See the November article in RHO when it comes out, it addresses, in some detail, the bogus concept of reef stability. Instead of being stable environments, coral reefs are now recognized by the people who study them as being amongst the most variable marine environments on the planet.

Here are some quotes from some reef authorities.

“Contrary to the previous consensus that emphasized the stability of physical variables at tropical latitudes, the modern, shallow, tropical marine environment is in fact characterized by considerable fluctuations in physical conditions on a daily, seasonal, and annual, and interannual basis….These data have radically altered the view that coral reef communities are stable ecosystems that have existed in a state of near-equilibrium for millions of years, arising largely as a result of long term and diverse competitive evolutionary adjustments under benign environmental conditions. Reefs are clearly not in equilibrium, but present highly dynamic communities that are constantly responding to both constant disturbance, and also to wholly unpredictable catastrophic events.� (Wood, R. 1999. Reef Evolution. Oxford University Press. Oxford. 414 pp.; emphasis added).

“Shallow water tropical coral reefs occupy changing and often extreme environments…� (Wood, 1999).
“Indeed the constant disturbance and heterogeneity of the coral reef habitat appear to be necessary for the functioning of a healthy coral reef,� (Brown, B. E. 1997. Adaptations of reef corals to physical environmental stress. Advances in Marine Biology. 31:221-299.).

[reefclown]

25.6 - 25.8 -> 78.08-78.44, but that is the Uk , we get maybe 30 days of real heat (>30) a year

controlled via a twin pid controller, heating is 2 x300w, cooling is 3 6 inch fans and a titanium mains water fed exchanger for backup.

"Then what's all this fuss I always hear about keeping the temp at nearly the exact same temp?
It is absolutely, and utterly, pre-processed male bovine food...

See the November article in RHO when it comes out, it addresses, in some detail, the bogus concept of reef stability. Instead of being stable environments, coral reefs are now recognized by the people who study them as being amongst the most variable marine environments on the planet."

kinda interesting to provide that which nature cannot

but the again as soon as the pid controller blows a chip....

[finneganswake]

Originally posted by greenbean36191
Sure, they bought themselves $500 worth of placebo effect and extra oxygen in case of a power outtage.


Sure because at the upper limits, high temps do weaken corals, and some reefs were already pretty close to that. The same is true at the lower limits as well. Mid 80s is nowhere near the upper limit though and there is nothing at all irresponsible about keeping a reef there.

Worldwide the yearly average on the reefs is 81, and the average low temp is 76. The real fluctuation is quite a bit more than that though. Take for example, the historical data for a 13 year period in the Keys. The average August temperature range was 84-88 with at least one reading of almost 92. The average Feb. range for the same location is 72-77 with a few readings in the mid 60s. Changes like that have been going on since reefs first came about. It's nothing new. The only new thing is the maximum temps some of these reefs are reaching and I don't think anyone is advocating keeping a reef in the 90's.

If you can't keep your tank from climbing into the upper 80s or low 90s then by all means go ahead and get a chiller. On a tank that only occasionally gets that hot or just to control fluctuations, you're wasting a lot of money.

Let's see if you're willing to put your money where your mouth is. How about doing the following--set up your tank so that there are no heaters or fans, etc., running unless your temperature goes outside the parameters you've mentioned. It would be simple to set up with a controller. I mean, if chillers aren't necessary, surely heaters aren't either--it's only logical since temperature fluctuations aren't anything to worry about. And, of course, I wouldn't want you to waste $50 on an unnecessary thing like a heater.

Somehow, I don't think you'll be willing to do this.

[samsfishnchips]

finneganswake I don't know why you even bother,

I'm wondering myself that too

just check out what can happen when a chiller is out, also a friend lost his beautiful 90 when he was out, and chiller die,

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hlight=chiller

when you have a setup like that, a chiller is pure pocket change

it just doesn't take a brilliamt mind, to understand that stability and slow changes is better than numbers all over the place,

Albert Einstein:
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."

sam

[greenbean36191]

My nano already runs without a heater. It's not by any means a trophy tank, but I've grown just about every type of coral including acros in there with no trouble.

On my 29 there is a heater, but it only comes on in the winter when the tank hits 77 which is pretty rare. There is nothing else besides the ambient temp, lights, and pumps controlling the temp there.

[finneganswake]

Originally posted by nunez1980
finneganswake I don't know why you even bother,

Because I'm convinced that temperature stability is good for our tanks and I'd like to convince them so that their livestock stays healthy. Call me a stubborn altruist

[greenbean36191]

just check out what can happen when a chiller is out, also a friend lost his beautiful 90 when he was out, and chiller die

And this is one of the tanks where the temp would constantly be at the upper limit without a chiller. See above where I said that this is one of the cases where a chiller is apropriate.

it just doesn't take a brilliamt mind, to understand that stability and slow changes is better than numbers all over the place

Then go ahead and prove it empirically.

[finneganswake]

Originally posted by greenbean36191
My nano already runs without a heater. It's not by any means a trophy tank, but I've grown just about every type of coral including acros in there with no trouble.

On my 29 there is a heater, but it only comes on in the winter when the tank hits 77 which is pretty rare. There is nothing else besides the ambient temp, lights, and pumps controlling the temp there.

Fair enough, so let's take it a step further--forced temperature fluctuations. Force your tank to fluctuate in the manner you claim it occurs in the wild.

[jarhed]

But see finnegan, I've already demonstrated to you that I have stability in temps without a chiller. I'll assume that if my fan dies I'll have a huge swing just as if the chiller died. Other than that, I've found no other reason to buy a chiller. Oh, and as far as money, I'm not hurting there. If I want a chiller I can get one, but I just dont see the need. Nobody ever got rich wasting money.

[greenbean36191]

Buy me a heater and I'll do it. The 29 is 200 miles away, so it's not exactly practical to do there.

[samsfishnchips]

greenbean36191,

I really didn't want an answer, thats my opinion, you have yours and thats fine, this thread is really to give your opinion, and move on, not really for debates,

finneganswake, and thats what I meant when I said why you even bother, greenbean36191 has his thoughs and thats not going to change anytime soon,

lets give others the chance to input their opinion, and lets move on

sam