What do people with large tanks do when Ich is present?

[guyguerra]

I am curious what the experiences and outcomes of Ich in large tanks. I have a 230 gallon reef that is almost a year old. There is a picture below. Unless I were to tear down the tank and remove most of the rock it would be virtually impossible to remove the fish. I could use a trap, but some of my fish are never going to fall for that. So far I've only seen a few spots on my clowns and my Copperband. I've been thru this before, but the tank was smaller, I had fewer fish, and the fish very of a more simple variety. I've given in to the fact that there really is nothing I can do other than to let it run it's course. Since so many people have large tanks I know I can't be the only one to run into this. What have you guy's done in this situation and what was the outcome. Guy

[swannking]

I used to have the same problem with my tangs esp. the PBT. I quarantine it twice in a separate tub, fed garlic etc. It still got ick as soon as I put him in my 400g reef. Finally, installed a 80W UV. No more ick. I have a PBT, a sailfin and a chevron. Newest addition is a hippo which is still in my refug for quarantine. No signs of ick.

[M. Python]

I have a 180 and always put fish with ich in it. I have neon gobies and feed the fish two to three times a day, the ich goes away on it’s own. If your tank is stable and your fish are healthy there won’t be a problem and it will correct itself. I added a powder blue tang with ich seven months ago and it is gone now. I have 27 fish. Some I have had over eight years. I don’t have a UV sterilizer, don’t use medications and don’t have a hospital tank.

[brad23]

I use to think the same way you guys did until I lost 6 fish a month agao.

QT everything.

[guyguerra]

Brad, what did you end up doing? Theres no debate on this thread, nor do I want it to be debated here, about the importance of QT. Theres plenty of other threads for that. My specific reason for this thread is to ask people that have large tanks what they do when they see Ich. I'm hoping I can get some answers from others like myself that have a system that is too large, with too many corals, anemones, etc. to tear down to get the fish out.

[taflaw]

I would have to agree with what Steven Pro has to say about the subject:

"Most of the hobbyists who consider letting their fish fight off the infection [Ick] on their own are hopeful that it will work because they find the challenge of removing all the fish and allowing the aquarium to go fallow (without any fish hosts), very daunting. If you are considering natural immunity as a treatment option, ask yourself a few simple questions.

• How big is the tank?
• How difficult would it really be to tear the display apart to capture and remove all of the fishes to a separate hospital/quarantine tank for treatment?
• How much is it going to cost to replace all of the fishes in the event of a catastrophic loss?
• What kind of moral and ethical responsibilities do you have for the pets that you purchased?
• And lastly, what in the world were you doing adding anything that had not been quarantined into your aquarium in the first place?

I cannot answer these questions for you, but it is my opinion that it is inappropriate to do nothing. I would hope for acquired or innate natural immunity to kick in when used with other less aggressive but pro-active treatments, such as using biological cleaners, medicated foods, UV, ozone, and garlic. Although I clearly don't believe this shotgun approach of unproven treatments is the most effective option available. For me, if you gamble with un-quarantined items and infect your tank, it is best to bite the bullet, remove all the fishes to a separate quarantine aquarium, fallow the tank, and use a proven treatment."

Personally, I would place all your fish into quarantine (I prefer hyposalinity treatment for 6 weeks at 1.010ppm, especially for Powder Blue tangs because copper treatment will kill them) and allow your reef to go fallow for two months.

[guyguerra]

A 7 foot tank with glass cross beams on the top, 250 lbs of live rock over 60 corals grown into the rock makes getting the fish out impossible. As to qt, I qt'd all my fish. It is impossible (easy to say though) to qt every snail invert, clam, soft and hard corals, pods, mandarin fish, anemones, starfish, fuge materials an fuge clean up crews, etc. Lets play that out. I could set up a tank with metal halides to keep the corals. Say you buy six corals. Have a second tank for fish. But knowing that if you buy more than two or three you will be just about guaranteed that one will have Ich and affect all of them. So in 6 weeks we can add six corals and 3 fish, now we start again, now I buy some snails and a few more corals, 6 weeks later they go in, and 3 more fish. But I lost two fish in Qt, so I add one. Now I see a clam I want, so the clam goes in the coral tank for 6 weeks and 3 more fish. 6 more weeks of managing three tanks. Then you see a cool anemone,so he goes in the coral tank, and again Qt 3 fish. 2 make it this time. So we are 6 months into a very staunch Qt everything mode,and we have 6 fish, 12 corals, one clam, one anemone and some snails.
A decent stock on a 230 is 15 fish, 60 corals,a few clams,an anemone, 80 snails, a few star fish, a couple sea cukes, 50 hermits, a fuge with pods, macro and more clean up stuff. With the example above, it would take 1 1/2 years for the fish, and 2 1/2 years for the inverts. You did it, but then you find a nice manderin fish. He can't survive in a Qt. Do you add him? Then you buy some pods, those can't be Qt'd either. But the manerin needs them (I have never been comfortable enough to trust that my tank and fuge supply enough, so I add some every two months). You buy some macro to feed your vegetarians, that can't be Qt'd.
I point all this out because this is what it would take to do what you suggest. I mentioned that I didn't want to debate Qt stuff here, there are more threads than needed on that subject. I am asking people what their experience was when they have not been able to break down large systems. I'll put it here so that people can see that Ich can come from anything. All my fish were Qt'd for 6 weeks. My original fish came from my old 120 and were ich free, that's why I was able to have so many fish so soon. I did not Qt the corals, but was careful with what I bought. I didn't Qt my clams because I wasn't going to put metal halides and a chiller on my 50 gallon Qt. Nor was it possible to Qt my mandarin, and I choose not to Qt my $250 Helfrich fire fish. I bought two and gave one to my son, his didn't have Ich, and mine hasn't shown a spot, so I think its a safe bet I didn't get it from him. I have no idea how I got it, and I am not the only one to experience this. It is absolutely impossible to get all 15 fish out of that tank without pulling all the LR out and draining it down some. Just the firefish and jawfish alone would be impossible in a 7 ft tank that is 26" deep and has three horizontal glass braces from the back of the tank to the front. . Then, they won't fit in my 50 gallon tank, so where do they go? How many will die from the trauma. That's why I put the question here, and why I wanted to keep the thread focused on this type of situation. I have ozone, uv, cleaner shrimp and a cleaner wrasse. I am not wanting to sound rude, and I have been and always will Qt every fish I buy, but thats not what I was asking advice on. My tank is still doing great and none of the fish are showing any symptoms right now. So, back to what I am asking for advice on, what has been the experiences of people with large tanks that couldn't be torn down when ich is present.
Thanks, Guy

[Justjoe]

You can't eliminate ich, even with quarantine, but you should quarantine no matter what.
When I see some ich, I'll increase foods with garlic. Nothing proven with garlic, but it does seem to help, especially with possible secondary problems. I'll also take a visual inventory on my cleaners (shrimp, gobies, etc) and sometimes you'll need to mount the troops and add extra cleaners to deal with an outbreak. Also make sure your water qualities are good, sometimes we get lazy and let alk drop.
Keep your fish well fed and the best thing is to keep them as healthy as possible to keep a good slime coat going to beat the parasites.
Joe

[tfp]

i gave in after multiple battles with ich from introducing new fish (no, i dont quarentine) and finally bought a 57w aqua UV. haven't seen scratching, rapid breathing or fading colors after about 30 days of its use...

[Pansy-Paws]

When I had ick in my 375 gal tank, I used a 36W UV, freshly crushed garlic cloves, and weekly siphoning of about 1/8" of sand. That last item is quite a process, but I believe that removing some of the top layer of sand did help in reducing the trophont population (I have no proof, though). My cleaner crew included neon gobies, blood shrimp and cleaner shrimp. This seemed to keep the disease in check and allowed the natural immune system of the fish to take over.

I have since started using beta glucan in my QT process (and sometimes in the food for my FOWLR tank), and have read reasonable claims that it helps strenghten the fish immune system.

Unfortunately, after seeing the ick subside, my tank then picked up velvet (I believe from a cleaner wrasse that I expedited through QT to help with the ick), and the combination of the diseases won.

To save what I could, I broke down my tank (350 lbs rock, but only a few soft corals) in an 8 hour marathon session. Three fish came out alive in the end. I left the tank fallow for 8 weeks before I restocked with fish.

I try to QT everthing that is wet, but as you've articulated very well, the ideal approach for a large tank has some practical difficulties.

Good luck.

[Psionicdragon]

I drained 250 gallon of water and hypo the whole 300 gal tank.

I added ozone and a UV.

I am trying different QT process. Some work, some don't or something goes wrong.

[Unlikely_Hero]

There are plenty of medications you can dose it with, but with a tank that size, it gets costly quick, and while many treat the ich in the fish, they don't rid the tank of it and they can catch it again.

Other than that, I can't really help you. I had one case of ich and the meds worked, thank goodness. I guess I caught it early.

Good luck with it. You could have a big job ahead of you.

[X-FACTOR]

There is nothing you can do, short of doing what you don't want to do, when I get ich (rarely) I cross my fingers, feed heavy garlic and hope for the best. I have over 200 corals in my tank (the 300) and 45 fish, and I can't/won't tear into my tank for a fish that has ich, even a 250 dollar helfrichi (I have 6 of them) There is no reef safe treatment. Like I said I do what I can and if I lose that fish thats what happens.

[guyguerra]

X Factor, your experience is what I was looking for, it sounds very similar to my situation and I feel exactly like you do. The losses I would have, both corals and fish not to mention hundreds and hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars makes that possibility completely out of any reality. I'm hoping my tank goes the way yours has. I haven't seen any change in the fish, and I haven't seen a spot in a while. You wouldn't even know ich was in the tank if you looked at it right now. I noticed the first spot a month ago, but there were only a few fish that showed it, just the clowns, kole tang and copperband. The copperband has been with me for two years and I'd feel like @#%$ if he died, but they are all clear now. The only thing i have left to add to it is a sailfin tang that has been in my 50 gallon tank for 2 months now. He had ich, along with a mystery wrasse and clown wrasse. That group was 6 fish when they started QT, and I lost three during the process, but they remaining three haven't shown a sign in a month. they were scratching like crazy in their 2nd week here. I have lost my share of fish using Cupramine or hypo, so I tried "no sick fish" to see what would happen. I won't make the statement that it worked yet, but between that, garlic and time, (wasn't that a song?) they completely cleared up, no spots, no scratching. I'm pleasantly shocked. The Sailfin will have to move soon. He's not too big for the fifty gallon but I've got some algae in the 230 that I'd love to see him eat. I figure I'll start both tanks on a reef safe medicine (that I know doesn't work) and some garlic and vitamins, then move him, and keep up the maintenance for a week or two after the move. If I make it thru that, it should be a done deal. It does concern me to move him though. It's definitely going to have a social impact and possibly cause an episode, but I want him in that tank to help keep my LR cleaner than it is. My kole tang does a good job, but the sailfin would be a help. Thanks for telling me about your tank. Did you have ich before all your fish were put in, and if so, did the addition start any outbreaks? I want to make sure I know as much as possible before I move him. I have every option open to me right now as far as the sailfin goes. If some of you have done this and had losses because of it, I might just send him back to the LFS.
Guy

[X-FACTOR]

Well sailfins are not well know for getting ich (like a PBT or achilles), But it don't mean you won't have trouble, I have ich in my tank always, my chevron tang has a few small spots almost every day (and has for the three years I have had him) as well as my six blue tangs, but it is never a problem. I have a copperband that has never come down with it in the same tank.
Bottom line...if you have ich and add another fish it is a gamble at best.

My theory is this: Keep your fish as healthy as you can, I feed garlic everyday. if they are healthy they will fight it off if not they might not.
Look, I have been in this hobby hardcore for over 15 years (closer to 20) and have had over 20 different tanks and have NEVER had a tank without ich (even with VERY strict QT It always came from somewhere) and have lost some fish like everyone else but once I started feeding them well and doing everything I can to keep them healthy I have had very small losses. I have fish in my reef I have had for over 10 years and have not lost a fish in my tank for over a year and I bet I can find some ich in my tank right now......Healthy fish can/will fight off disease just like you fighting off the common cold.

Just my .02...FWIW

[taflaw]

Originally posted by guyguerra
I am not wanting to sound rude, and I have been and always will Qt every fish I buy, but thats not what I was asking advice on. My tank is still doing great and none of the fish are showing any symptoms right now. So, back to what I am asking for advice on, what has been the experiences of people with large tanks that couldn't be torn down when ich is present.
Thanks, Guy

No signs of ick now just means the parasite is no longer in the trophont stage. Once mature, Ick parasites drop off the fish and sink/swim down to the substrate where they encyst and begin to reproduce. In this stage they are called tomonts. After a number of days in which the tomonts divide, the cyst ruptures, releasing the tomites. Tomites may differentiate into theronts, the infective stage, which actively seek a host to reinfect.


I have helped several people with systems much larger than yours ... what you can do is just purchase a few large Rubbermaid containers (about five 30 to 40 gallons tubs should be enough) from Lowes, Home Depot etc, and quickly place all of your live rock and corals in these tubs, then catch the fish with large nets and place them in a quarantine tank. The Rubbermaid tubs are inexpensive. After the fish are in quarantine, simply return your live rock and corals back to your main system and allow your system to remain fallow for 2 months. Not to be rude (as you stated to me), but removing over 200 pounds of live rock and coral is not a big deal....You can also leave all the inverts in your main system anyway. This process should take only a few hours if you plan it out properly. Your coral and live rock will be fine without heat and lights in the Rubbermaid tubs for a while as well. If you do not remove the fish, ick will always remain in your system. For any future purchases, if you quarantine everything you buy ,you will not have any more problems. By the way, UV is only effective at killing ick in bare bottom systems with no live rock and gravel/sand. The major drawback to the use of ozone is the potential to overdose and kill everything in the system. It doesn't sound like you appreciated my response to your problem, but other people will read this post as well, and they may NOT find the challenge of removing all the fish and allowing the aquarium to go fallow (without any fish hosts) very daunting.

Locally, a guy in my area is is going through a similar problem. He added an Achilles tang to his 400 gallon system without quarantining the fish. Now, all the fish have ick.

[guyguerra]

X Factor, Thanks for your advice, IMO you stated the reality very clearly. Guy

Look, I have been in this hobby hardcore for over 15 years (closer to 20) and have had over 20 different tanks and have NEVER had a tank without ich (even with VERY strict QT It always came from somewhere) and have lost some fish like everyone else but once I started feeding them well and doing everything I can to keep them healthy I have had very small losses. I have fish in my reef I have had for over 10 years and have not lost a fish in my tank for over a year and I bet I can find some ich in my tank right now......Healthy fish can/will fight off disease just like you fighting off the common cold.

[taflaw]

While Ich may be present in some aquaria, it is certainly not present in all aquaria. Through careful quarantining and treatment, it is very much possible to establish and maintain an Ich free aquarium.

Also keep in mind that UV (Ultra Violet) or Ozone Sterilization units only destroy Ich during the new born, free swimming life cycle stage of the parasites. They do not kill or remove the Ich parasites once attached to the fish. These units may assist you in controlling an Ich bloom from getting out of hand but if you really want to eliminate Ich from your aquarium, then you will have to do something that you are not willing to do at this time (i.e., remove your fish to quarantine and allow your aquarium to go fallow).

Good Luck!

[Kazza24]

Is it true that uv sterilizers can kill off beneficial bacteria and other things?

[brad23]

Well it was in my 75g, I used garlic, all kinds of food. It came back went away for quite some time until 3 weeks ago.

I lost three Anthias, Flame angle, rainford goby. One of my wrasses was covered in it and so was my large engineer.

I took the tank apart and so far so good.

[guyguerra]

Brad, did you make any changes in your tank after the first breakout? I'm asking to learn what might have caused it to return and be worse than the first time. Were all the water parameters the same?
Kazza24, I'll jump off topic for a second, but want to focus on results of tanks that can't be broken down. UV will most definitely kill Ich. The problem is that the Ich will need to run thru the UV chamber, and the second problem is that it will also kill any pods or good bacteria also. I suspect that my 50 gallon tank was helped a lot since it's such a small tank and I have a large UV turning over the water multiple times per day. My 230 is too large to expect much from UV, thou I do have a 57 watter on it. I'm considering chopping another large UV in my closed loop to increase the amount that is sterilized this way. I think UV and Ozone will definitely help, along with cleaner fish and shrimp and good husbandry.

Back to "what happens to tanks that have had ich but couldn't be broken down". So far, my 50 gallon is still showing no signs of ich, and the 230 looks good right now. I think I have it beat in the 50 gallon, and am starting a strong fight in the 230 to hopefully finish it off. I posted this same question on the Fish Disease forum, and there are a lot my replies and, since the forum has more visitors, there is more information there. Here's the link:
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...7&goto=newpost
Thanks, Guy

[Kip]

have only skimmed this thread, but will offer my .02c

when the fish in my display got crypto, i couldnt remove and QT them all... so i hypo'd the display. I had to pull all of the corals and inverts out and house them in a fishless system for 6wks. I took the display down to 14ppt and kept it there over a month. This got the ich outta the system and the corals in a fallow environment "sterilized" them as well. All new fish are now QT'd and hypo'd before entering the display. I havent seen crypto in the display since the first treatment.

problems to consider:
- i was dealing with stonies and moving them into a new environment killed some of them and others browned out.

- the lowered salinity killed the life in the rock and caused about a week-long cycle

-over the course of a month or so organics built up in the system and started some line erosion on some of my fish (skimmer doesnt work well in hypo) both this and the last can be avoided by doing large, frequent water changes

-this refers to die-off, but most of the coraline algae, pods, worms, sponges, etc, etc, etc died during this time. So basically all of that money i spent on nice, marshall island rock was wasted. (well, i still have the nice shapes... and it has since been repopulated)

-when i moved the corals back into the tank after salinity was normalized... i lost even further. the display tank environment wasnt suitable for delicate corals right away.

moral of the story... i feel you can have a crypto-less system. it is a lot of work at first, but after you get by that... if you keep to a strict QT/hypo regimen for all of your new acquisitions.... then life will be much better

(i just typed all of this b/w phone calls at work... hope it made sense)

[ricks]

You guys wrote so much I'm speachless...

[Ixthys]

I feel your pain, but I don't understand why you can't catch your fish. I understand that it will take some time, but it is possible.

Calfo posted a thread (might search his old forum) with numerous ways to catch fish without tearing down big tanks. These included everything from acrylic fish traps, inverted bottles, and even barbless hooks (I'm not advocating this last one!).

I have a 35 hex stocked with corals, that I refused to tear down to catch the fish. I caught several of them by placing an acrylic breeder box with suction cup just underneath where I feed them every night. They would swim over the box to get the food, then make their descent into the box.

Of course, 2 of them wouldn't fall for that, so I made a box out of acrylic with a sliding trap door, and a tube to shoot food down into the box. Within 5 minutes I caught the other 2.

I guess my only point is that with patience and creativity you can outsmart them and not hurt your corals/rockwork.

[ricks]

I have tried everything... Maybe my fish are just to smart to trap. In a 500 gallon with 650-700# of live rock, it's dang near impossible.. I used to have ick outbreaks on my PBT. Would come and go, think it's on about 30 day cycle. I added ozone, took care of the problem. That was 3 years ago and no reinfections. Now I run very low amounts of ozone into the system and it's only on during the day in my tank. my redox stays between 400- 450 range. Also run carbon 24/7.....