Is this a good sign or bad? Rare hard to keep fish in LFS.

Onestep · #1 03/30/2002, 07:37 PM

The wife and I just walked into a local fish store and I saw 2 juv. emperor angels, one adult emperor angel, and low and behold a moorish idol. Is this a sign that the hobbie is expanding or the stores are just being greedy?

mrbast74 · #2 03/30/2002, 07:50 PM

Greed, maybe, but the fact that the market supports their sale is maybe a bigger issue. I don't know if we should blame the LFS for providing animals people want. Is the LFS partialy responsible for killing off many of these hard to keep creatures? I think in part they are. I would tend to place more of the blame on casual aquarists who continue to buy these pretty fish without educating themselves on the ramifications of doing so.

The bottom line is, if people stop buying, importers will stop shipping. Simple as that.(riiiight. real simple

)

I think we as educated aquarist need to take the first step in stopping irresponsable importation by educating. I also would say, remind your LFS owners that these species are terribly difficult to keep and that perhaps they should only purchase questionable species on a per request basis.

INNOVATOR · #3 03/30/2002, 07:51 PM

Well I haven't heard moorish idols doing well in captivity yet, mostly due to nutrition deficiencies. There are some dedicated aquarists who are able to keep them, but I am sure that is more luck than anything as far as nutrition is concerned. I'd say the lfs is a little greedy and possibly not being informed on what they are selling

OrionN · #4 03/30/2002, 07:57 PM

LFS sell what people buy. It s just simple as that. Emperator angels are not hard to keep. Young Emporator will not be as colorful if they mature and change color in cativity. This is THE reason I choose an Majestic angle for my tank instead of an Emperator angel.

naesco · #5 03/30/2002, 08:39 PM

The Moorish Idol should not be imported.
The LFS should get an earfull from you. He will probably tell you he did not order it. It came as fill. But, at least, next time he will smarten up.
Experts do not have any better luck that newbies. The fish die anyone although there is the rare reefer who claims he has been lucky enough to keep one for a period of time.

The Perfect Pet · #6 03/30/2002, 09:19 PM

well Naesco,

I feel you are grossly wrong. it is quite ignorant and irresponsible for you to make such claims.(although there are many on these boards who do the same.)

Yes this is a very delicate and hard species to maintain in captivity
but that does not mean that it can't be done or that someone should be discouraged for researching and attempting to keep one. There are many species that should not be kept in captivity.
IMHO we really should not keep any of these animals in captivity, but we do so why limit it to certain ones. without trying how can we build experience and knowledge. if people hadn't tried to keep reef aquaria in the past 30 yrs, do you think we would be where we are today? I DOUBT IT! don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that anyone should just run out and buy one and try to keep it. but with the proper experience and research(and tank setup) why not try?

as for experience one of my clients has had a Moorish idol in a 220 gal. reef for over 2 yrs.
It is a well established reef(over 5yrs)
and trust me this fish is as beautiful as the day it came in.
now maybe it is just dumb luck or the fact that he designed the tank with keeping this fish 6 yrs ago. but he did not have great luck at first. His first to did not last to long(probably due to the tank not being mature enough) he blames shipping for the loss of the second one. so I guess, so far third times a charm.

sorry if this post offended anyone (and NAESCO this was not directly at you,except the first para. sorry)

this is just my 2 centz!

-B-

Wild Card-inal · #7 03/30/2002, 09:27 PM

I have read that Moorish Idols have quite a large range; this means that they can take a variety of different water qualities, right?

Also, I believe that it is better in an aged tank with a lot of coralline algae since Moorish Idols eat that, right? I'm not completely sure...

Mad Scientist · #8 03/30/2002, 09:35 PM

I got to agree with B on this one. One should be very careful pointing the finger at someone, without first looking at their own tank.

Let's not forget that even in the 1990s there were proferssional biologists claiming that people would never keep SPS in their homes. As far as keeping some of the more difficult angel and butterflys (that many public aquariums can't maintain) I think it's only a matter of time before someone gets the setup right. Big tank? Another tank growing their speicalized food? Who knows.

naesco · #9 03/30/2002, 10:16 PM

I'm irresponsible, and ignorant too!?
So what are you saying. Is it that you should continue to purchase Moorish Idols and sell them to reefers with the hope that someone may stumble on how to keep them alive?
There is no doubt that today experts, scientists, universities are studying the Moorish Idol and other impossible to keep species and may sometime come up with what is necessary to keep them alive.
Unless an expert reefer who is studying this fish, specifically orders a Moorish Idol, you should do the hobby a favour and stop purchasing them for resale in your store.

Wild Card-inal · #10 03/30/2002, 10:19 PM

I see both opinions, but we can all agree on one thing:

No inexperienced hobbyist is going to get their hands on a Moorish Idol!

mrbast74 · #11 03/30/2002, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wild Card-inal
I see both opinions, but we can all agree on one thing:

No inexperienced hobbyist is going to get their hands on a Moorish Idol!

Huh????

there are many places that carry them at one time or another. The only thing that keeps some hobbiests from getting them is a relatively high price compared to most "starter fish".

naesco · #12 03/30/2002, 10:29 PM

Wildcard that is the problem. Many LFS such as the Perfect Pet's LFS carry them and sell them to unsuspecting reefers.
This fish is not a difficult fish it is an impossible to keep fish.
It is a tragedy in my opinion that we allow Moorish Idol to be imported except by permit.
If we hobbyists do not become involved in stopping their import and the import of other impossible to keep species, the government will become involved,and we will be hoarding our clownfish and damsels and trading brown frags with each other.

Mad Scientist · #13 03/30/2002, 10:45 PM

naesco, that's pretty serious charge there, I happen to frequent Perfect Pets' LFS and for you to say that they dump fish on "unsuspecting" reefers is unfounded.

I know MIs are hard, but, impossible? There are people on this board that have them. Also, MI's are not endangered. With rare exception, aquarium keepers are not responislbe for the massive damage todays' reefs are suffering, in fact one day many of these species will probably only exist in people tanks.

If someone has the right setup and has researched it, why can't they try an exotic species?

The Perfect Pet · #14 03/30/2002, 10:48 PM

well NAESCO,

Here you go proving your ignorance again.
For your information we do not carry them at the LFS that I work at. They, and many other species of fish(as well as inverts), are available by "paid in full" special order ONLY. and as far as selling anything to an unexpecting reefer you have obviously never been to the LFS that I work at. We even grill our freshwater people about requirements for their fish and other animals. I am quite offended again by your ignorance and rudeness. I take quite a bit of pride in educating our customers, rather than just selling to them.

Quote:

If we hobbyists do not become involved in stopping their import and the import of other impossible to keep species, the government will become involved,and we will be hoarding our clownfish and damsels and trading brown frags with each other.

Its people like this that will bring this hobby to an abrupt halt.
If you make a big fuss about something so small in the scope of things, then yes the gov. will get involved and then you will be trading brown frags.(while I'll be trading some nice green, red, and purple ones)
But yes the gov. will get involved and then the hobby as we know it will be ruined over a few hard/Impossible(?) species.

Again, just my 2 centz!!!!

-B-

INNOVATOR · #15 03/30/2002, 11:01 PM

Well for one they are not impossible. There are people who have kept them for years with a highly varied diet, but this takes determination and an extreme amount of dedication. However, there are species that should not be offered in the trade and this is probably one of them.
As far as who is to blame, everyone plays a part in it, from the diver to the consumer. Often times the lfs' aren't informed enough about the species of fish they carry, this is a problem. Often enough the people are not informed before they buy and the people selling them the fish may not know any better either, so this is a problem as well. Personally, I think if they want something done to stop this trend of selling animals probably better off in the ocean, is to stop importation of certain species, making it illegal or whatever (except maybe to legit scientists). Just a thought

naesco · #16 03/30/2002, 11:02 PM

I am really happy that your store does not carry them. Yours, I think you will agree is the exception not the rule.
I apologize for lumping you in with the others. I should have asked to first.
If you do not want the government to get involved than give 100% support to the efforts of hobbyists, authors in our hobby who we all respect, and some LFS and wholesalers who refuse to import and sell impossible to keep fish and coral.
If we in the hobby show that we can clean up our own mess, the government will not bother to get involved.
If we ignore it, they will get involved to the detriment of our hobby.

mrbast74 · #17 03/30/2002, 11:11 PM

It has been talked about a lot, but obviously not enough.

We need to get all online communities to band together and compile a list of standards and make a sort of "ISO" type of certification for LFS's to be able to voluntarily follow in exchange the LFS receives the coalitions seal of approval. Educated reefers can make an impact by only shopping at approved stores.

Until now the only action being taken to curb the sale of difficult species is none at all.

There are so many bright minds in these communities, I can't believe we don't do something like this.

INNOVATOR · #18 03/30/2002, 11:20 PM

There might be something like that coming out soon Bast, but not sure if it applies to salt water fish stores. What is being decided for pet stores in general is to have a complete description of everything you stock, live animal wise. This is very smart I think, but I have no idea if it applies to salt water fish stores. Plus, there are alot of rules that must be sorted out regarding the wording of such a law. It would be interesting if this possible new law does include fish stores!

mrbast74 · #19 03/30/2002, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by INNOVATOR
There might be something like that coming out soon Bast, but not sure if it applies to salt water fish stores. What is being decided for pet stores in general is to have a complete description of everything you stock, live animal wise. This is very smart I think, but I have no idea if it applies to salt water fish stores. Plus, there are alot of rules that must be sorted out regarding the wording of such a law. It would be interesting if this possible new law does include fish stores!

Do you have any more info on this? Is this to be a government mandate? Who exactly is making this innitiative. If it is a sort of fish store guild, great. If it is governmentally imposed I am not in favor.

Please let me know as much as you can about this because I may want to cast my vote in support.

If not, why don't we start something right here on RC. If we could somehow organize we could then get the word to reefs.org and then on to other message boards. Eventually with enough support we would have the clout to affect change.

naesco · #20 03/30/2002, 11:27 PM

Mr. Blast you are right on the money.
We should try to do something that will really make a difference.
Maybe we can do this through Reef Central. I get the feeling that most of the moderators are supportive. They just see to much.
I also think that some LFS would be interested. It is our hobby at stake but it is their livelihood.

mrbast74 · #21 03/30/2002, 11:33 PM

I wonder, where is a logical place to start. Would an idea like this need a leadership committee or board of directors to make final decisions on what the standards would be? Should we just start to gather info on what possible acceptable standards should be? It would be a large task but a worthy undertaking.
If we are determined we can affect change.

leigh · #22 03/31/2002, 12:10 AM

I too find that going into a LFS and finding a beautiful, but extremely hard to kee, fish poses a real dilemma. Do you, as an experienced aquarist, try to "save" this animal from certain death, or do you walk away, let it die somewhere else and hope that the LFS learns a lesson and doesn't import any more of this type of fish.

I, for one do not know enough about how these types of fish are caught. It seems that cyanide poisoning is totally indiscriminate and the person doing it sells what lives. How are net caught fish handled? Somehow I don"t think that a person could make a living catching on fish at a time. Why not drag a large net acrosss a coral reef and get a variety of fish?

My common sense tells me that a fisherman uses the most convenient method to catch the largest number of living fish, and then sells them in lots to a distributor. the distributor then sorts them and ships them in lots to smaller distributors in different countries or different cities in the same country.

The dilemma for me is - where in this process do individual orders for individual species of fish get placed, and at what point are difficult fish for which there should theoretically be no demand, get dumped, and how are they dumped.

I for one, think that many LFS's get most of these fish to sell at a cut rate price to them, and they make the best of a bad situation.

Besides, I always was a soft touch for a beautiful animal that I thought I could try to help. Thay is why I have had a 3" Regal Angel as the only fish in a 30 gallon reef tank for the last six months.

I bought it for $60 and it loves brine shrimp, formula one and finely chopped scallops. The hard part of all of this is that I couldn't help the three other Regals that showed up at the same store in pretty bad shape two weeks later.

fliberdygibits · #23 03/31/2002, 12:24 AM

Having worked (briefly) in sales, and having recently become interested in keeping a reef tank I can say with stout certainty that many lfs' will tell customers whatever it takes to make a sale. Even the ones that actually know something about fish..... ultimately they are there to make money and WILL do so regardless. We truly do live in a commercialized world.

I for one fell for their sales pitch, lost fish and plan to not listen to a word they say from here on out. Although, sometimes it breaks my hart to see an expensive fish that will happily be sold to "Joe Schmoe" without so much as a word of warning, mainly because the people truly knowlegable and caring enough to keep said fish wouldn't set foot in the store.

Ok, Off the soap box

mrbast74 · #24 03/31/2002, 12:27 AM

Please, stay on your soapbox and if you and others would be so kind, please help us to start somewhere by making constructive comments and opinions at this thread:
http://archive.reefcentral.com/vbull...threadid=75513

naesco · #25 03/31/2002, 12:32 AM

Leigh I think the answer always must be Do not buy the fish.
If you do with the idea that you 'can save it', the LFS will simply replace it with other impossible to keep fish.
If we reefers refuse to buy these fish and better yet give the LFS hell as well, the fish will die in THEIR tanks and they are then less likely to want to lose money again and will not repurchase these fish or coral.