Check Valve on Return?

jonahshark · #1 11/14/2005, 02:46 PM

I'm finishing the plumbing on my new system and I wanted to see how many people use a check valve or just drill their return or both?

Vincerama2 · #2 11/14/2005, 04:08 PM

I think a check valve will greatly reduce the flow that your return pump provides!

Try using a ball valve instead, which can be open up "fully" with minimum flow loss.

If you are worried about siphoning when the return pump fails, then yeah, I think drilling a small siphon break hole in the return line is the best. Make it just below the water line in the tank, and, of course, aim is such that you don't get a stream of water flying out of it! Make sure it's large enough to not clog!

V

jonahshark · #3 11/14/2005, 04:22 PM

That's what I thought. I'll just go with the siphon breaks. It provides a little surface agitation, which is always nice.

Thanks,

J

jimsar · #4 11/14/2005, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jonahshark
That's what I thought. I'll just go with the siphon breaks. It provides a little surface agitation, which is always nice.

Thanks,

J

Make sure you periodically clean the hole. Corraline algae, gunk, hair algae and what have you tend to clog it up over the years. You don't want to find out it's clogged after a power outage - - - and a flooded sump.

If you decide to include a check valve in addition to a siphon break, I recommend the Swiss-made George Fischer check valve. You'd want to have the redunduncy if your sump capacity is small.

Jim

sfsuphysics · #5 11/14/2005, 04:57 PM

Actually you can get a sump check valve(??) at places like home depot/lowes that essentially is a little flapper that takes next to zero effort to open, and it does quite a nice job at stopping backflow. Even with a little hole, that leads to other problems like water dribbling (if you're lucky!) out of the hole if its above the water line, or it getting gunked up with algae or something if below, eitherway I have had too many siphons pull water to a tank before switching to one (even a couple inches of water can be a large amount!

I think there's confusion between a pressure valve (which will reduce) and a sump check valve (for non-reef related sumps) that basically is a 1 way flow restrictor (without restricting the flow the way its flowing)

orientalexpress · #6 11/14/2005, 05:02 PM

haveing check valve is a good preventing measure from flooding your carpet if PG&E decided to shut off your power for some reason.gl,

lapsan

jimsar · #7 11/14/2005, 05:26 PM

Mike, most HD and Lowe's check valves have springs (note: metal) inside that might get corroded and/or "pollute" the tank. The George Fisher has no metal parts. Kinda expensive, though. I think I paid $25+ for a 3/4" one 3 or so years ago.

jonahshark · #8 11/14/2005, 05:53 PM

It also seems like if you have an auto top off system and have power tested your sump's water level, the siphon breaks are a back-up to running the right amount of water in the sump. I'll definitely be sure to check them frequently.

The metal springs inside the ones at Ace Hardware were enough to put a ? in my head, but I thought there had to be an all plastic one out there, 25 bucks tho', ouch!

sfsuphysics · #9 11/14/2005, 06:07 PM

Jim you're thinking of a different one than I.

This is the one I'm talking about, I don't think they use the word "valve" when describing it, it's called a sump check
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...125&lpage=none
it's 100% plastic, nothing metal inside, (practically)zero resistance to flow, and fairly cheap, although it doesn't come in many sizes, with some plastic/rubber hosing you can MacGyver it to fit any return pipe size.

73ChargerFan · #10 11/14/2005, 06:10 PM

All plastic swing style check valves are available online from many sources, probably plumbing.com, aquatic ecosystems, possibly marine depot, premium aquatics & custom aquatics. They have to be mounted vertically in order to work correctly.

andyman · #11 11/14/2005, 06:23 PM

A properly designed system will have a sump capable of containing any overflow in an event of a power loss. I'd suggest every one do a power outtage test to ensure your not overfilling your system. ie turn off all your power, wait an hour or so then fill your sump to a water level 1" below the theoretical max. Then turn the system back on and with a permanent marker draw a line where your maximum water level is when the system is running. This should be really easy for people who don't use surge systems. This way you'll know how much to top your system off by. I personally don't think a check valve is required if you kept the system simple. I've been through 5 tank designs and I've settled down to the point where its impossible to overflow my tank unless both overflows are clogged with algae.

raddogz · #12 11/15/2005, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jimsar
Make sure you periodically clean the hole. Corraline algae, gunk, hair algae and what have you tend to clog it up over the years. You don't want to find out it's clogged after a power outage - - - and a flooded sump.

If you decide to include a check valve in addition to a siphon break, I recommend the Swiss-made George Fischer check valve. You'd want to have the redunduncy if your sump capacity is small.

Jim

I bought a George Fischer check valve, and it worked well - however- you have to clean it otherwise like the siphon break hole it gets all gummed up.

reefkeeper1 · #13 11/15/2005, 11:56 AM

Do a search for "PVC Y-Pattern Piston Check Valves" at www.mcmastercarr.com, purchase the size you need, and install it as a foot valve at the intake of your sump return. A foot valve is a lot easier to install than something in between the return pump and your returns.

I didn't drill my returns, but they are high enough so that if the check valve fails, my sump won't overflow.

Worldwithin · #14 11/15/2005, 01:48 PM

I feel that check valves in the applications we use them in are not exactly a great idea... First, depending on what type of vavle you use, they can reduce flow. Second, you need to be able to open them up and clean them out because stuff will eventually gum them up, and stick them open. If stuck open, they are rather useless. Siphion breaks are extremely simple, and if located properly, rather effective. They too need to be cleaned periodically, but are much easier to clean than check valves. If you have a check valve on your return and want to clean it, you have to somehow drain your return line, which would require you to either drain it all back into your sump, or perform a lot of extra effort to clear the line. You could add a bunch of ball valves and unions to close that section, but now you are spending a ton of money as well as adding resistance to your plumbing with additional adapters.

Though not exactly failsafe, siphon breaks are simple and extremely effective.

Bemmer · #15 02/05/2006, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jimsar

If you decide to include a check valve in addition to a siphon break, I recommend the Swiss-made George Fischer check valve. You'd want to have the redunduncy if your sump capacity is small.

Jim [/B]

I am also considering the George Fischer (GF) check valve. I appreciate all the input on whether or not a check valve is necessary. The two biggest issues are the water flow reduction and the cleaning needed with the check valve. The GF check valve has a screw off top coming off the weir configuration allowing for the unit to be cleaned out. This eliminates the need for ball valves or unions to tear down the return plumbing to clean out the check valve.

I agree with Jim, they are very expensive but if you are interested in a check valve, this is the one to purchase.

My flow is not too much of an issue because I am using a Seq. Barracuda pump. lots of flow.

BoomerD · #16 02/05/2006, 11:51 PM

Even with a quality check valve in the system, you should drill the anti-siphon holes in the return, just in case a stray snail, bit of algae or other detritus gets caught in there, and prevents the valve from totally closing in case of power outage.
Remember, Murphy was an optimist...

jimsar · #17 02/06/2006, 01:11 AM

BoomerD, you're right. My check valve failed, and the siphon hole went to work. I was there when it happened, because the gate valve engages whenever I put the tank in "feed" mode which turns off the return pump. There is a distinct clunk when it happens. Turned out, it was gunk that caused the failure.

Wear a belt and suspenders at the same time, OK?

Bemmer · #18 02/06/2006, 05:18 AM

I plan to also include a siphon break hole in the return plumbing. However, the problem I have is where on the Seaswirl do I put the hole? I can't tell on the elbow where I should drill the hole. Anyone using a SS for their return?

Vincerama2 · #19 02/06/2006, 02:42 PM

Ugh, I just had a "bad siphon break" experience...

I installed a new Oceans Motions Squirt (2 way electric wavemaker). I guess my connections weren't tight enough (even though I used "pipe joint compound") and it dripped...onto a power strip, which triggered the GFCI and shut off the whole system. (NOTE to self, put return pump on another outlet so that tripping one GFCI won't kill everything).

With the return pump off, this should normally not be a problem. My return lines are submerged to 6 inches or so, but there are siphon break holes RIGHT at the surface of the water...well, too bad my siphon break holes weren't actually CHOKED with algae! Yep, with the pump off, the return lines siphoned SIX INCHES of water, which, on a 58 gallon tank was at least 5-10 gallons (just guessing) which filled the sump and flooded my carpet.

The only reason I actually caught it and was able to mop up SOME of the water with towels before it totally soaked the carpet was that I had a medical dosing pump on my kalkwasser mixer, which, when power is lost, beeps an alarm.

I took the whole return system apart and re-did it. Meaning, that I tightened up all connections, then I wrapped all my (clear, and clearly algae filled vinyl return lines) with electrical tape to block light and prevent algae growth. Naturally, I also cleaned out the built up algae. And I went and DRILLED LARGER SIPHON BREAK HOLES in the reutn lines AND I added an extra one on the opposite side of the return line.

Don't learn the hard way! Make BIG siphon break holes, and make a "backup hole" as well!

Since my siphon break holes are ABOVE the water line slightly, they tend to act a bit like venturis and/or little fountains. I would suggest drilling the holes just below the surface of the water. I might actually redo my return lines again.

Good luck!

V

TiGs · #20 02/06/2006, 03:01 PM

Would it be ok to drill two siphon break holes on the return as an extra precaution?

BoomerD · #21 02/06/2006, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Would it be ok to drill two siphon break holes on the return as an extra precaution?

Certainly, in fact, it's recommended. As mentioned above, hair algae, coralline, or even a wandering snail can block one or more holes, so while adding 2 will help, you STILL need to pay attention, and keep them clear...

raddogz · #22 02/06/2006, 04:29 PM

The one problem with automation is you wind up being less "hands-on". Top-off, check siphon break holes, and even inspecting drains for clogs or algae build-up.

DanielMar · #23 02/07/2006, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 73ChargerFan
All plastic swing style check valves are available online from many sources, probably plumbing.com, aquatic ecosystems, possibly marine depot, premium aquatics & custom aquatics. They have to be mounted vertically in order to work correctly.

Anthony,
Not so on the check valves only being mounted vertical. They work horizontal as well. And if you do use one, they do leak a little backward in time also. Drill the hole too. Maintenance and cleaning to stop this leak is a must bi-annually imo. They have threaded too. With this low of loss you may be redundant with 2 in line.
http://www.marinedepot.com/md_viewIt...product=FT9155
Daniel

DanielMar · #24 02/07/2006, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bemmer
I plan to also include a siphon break hole in the return plumbing. However, the problem I have is where on the Seaswirl do I put the hole? I can't tell on the elbow where I should drill the hole. Anyone using a SS for their return?

I think Sea Swirl has this in the instructions. Somehow I remember reading this. As far as I know, the hole is above the water level and not into the downpipe of the swirl but into the elbow. You should email or call them to be sure though. Anyone else know? He's been tryin to figure this one out.
Use the swing checks they work great for me.
Daniel