Tropic Marin Pro Alert -- Warning!!!-- Has anyone else seen this?

[George_N_Jo]

I just got a new batch of Tropic Marin Pro and have been doing water changes. I made up a batch and let it sit about three days aerating before I was ready to do my water change. I tested it and found it to be very deficient in Alk and Calcium. I figured I waited too long and chalked it up to precipitation. Thus I supplemented to get it up to par and did my water change.

Mg 1270 ppm
ALK 6.7 dKH / 2.40 meq/L
Ca 350 ppm

I decided that I would do a water change on my other system so I made up water and added my salt. I then gave it about 6 hours to aerated and then tested it to see where the level were. Again it was very low.

Mg 1500 ppm
ALK 4.8 dKH / 1.71meq/L
Ca 300 ppm

We are encouraged to purchase these custom blend salts for the advantage of higher Magnesium, Alkalinity, and Calcium, But this type of things happens. I an very concerned for those whom do no testing at water change times. I encourage everyone using Tropic Marin Pro to test vigorously prior to do water changes.

I would have been willing to chalk one incident up to my error. But am not will to believe that two incidents such as this falls on me making an error in the handling to the mixing of salt and water. Some thing is not right here.

Has anyone else seen this?

George

[anative]

I didn't test the last batch I made for ALK but CA was over 500 ppm and Mg was 1500 ppm. I'll look around and see if I can dig up an ALK test kit (you know me and test kits) and test the batch that is mixing right now.

Jon

[Me No Nemo]

Hey George, I use Pro at home and just tested out about 20 gallons I had aerating to do a water change tomorrow. I don't have a magnesium test at home but here's what I got for alk and calcium:
ALK 14.4 dKH / 5.14 meq/L
Ca 490 ppm.
I tested twice to be sure.

[George_N_Jo]

This is really strange. I guess I could have a bad batch. But it seems like modulus of what I have is all over the charts. It is almost like if I made two 10 gallon mixes independently with in a few moments of one another that they would be significantly different.

Can either of you (native / nemo) think of anything that I could be doing wrong with regards to causing this situation. I am stumped. I am just mixing salt at a 26 concentration here. It is not brain surgery.

[Me No Nemo]

Disregard my results...Tom was asleep when I tested and he had additives added to the water, so that would skew the results. I'll test it next time I mix it up fresh.

[waterfaller1]

Would'nt the reading be off when you test freshly made water?Should'nt it be airated/mixed for awhile before being tested?
Like...the PH of fresh made water is definately going to be low...and cal/alk/PH are related...so would'nt that make a difference?
Also...I thought the temp. of the water makes a difference too.

[MORAY]

Aerating the water increases the PH because PH is a function of the oxygen content in the water. But, the calcium and magnesium are not affected by aerating. The temp may swing it a little but not to the degree George is seeing.

George, is that a typo in your second set for magnesium?

Who knows exactly how they produce this salt and add the elements, but obiously there is something wrong with the manufacture of that salt batch, or the elements they used to make it. I wonder what kind of QC they have and how much salt is affected. Do they have any kind of code on it? It would interesting to hear Tropic Marin's thoughts on this and the actions they take, if any.

The IO problem a few years ago showed up all over the country with many posting their own personal dissasters. I wonder how many people this might affect and how many will notice.

[George_N_Jo]

JW

The second Mg in not a typo. The Mg is very high in the basic mix. I tested a batch of Tropic Marin Pro that JC had in made up some time ago, using the same test kits, and found it to have a calcium around 450 and a ALK of about 8.0 dKH. So it is definitely my salt. I also wonder how many people just go with the leap of faith with regards to the content and relative quality of their salt. Just because it says its the best does not necessarily mean that it is. What was that Dire Straits song, I think it was Industrial Disease, the verse was "Two men claim their Jesus, One of them must be wrong" I guess not every salt which claims its the best and the THE best.

[Me No Nemo]

I've contacted Tropic Marin and got an almost immediate reply from Hans-Werner Balling requesting this fhread, so let's see what comes of that. Here is an exerpt from one of his emails this morning:

"But first one word about natural specific gravity. The natural average salinity of oceanic waters is 35 ppt which equals a specific gravity of 1.0264. If you don´t adjust your saltwater to the right specific gravity you won´t get the concentrations that we claim. In this case a specific gravity of 1.0264 is 6 percent higher than 1.025. Indeed this is not much but especially in calcium and magnesium it is detectable. For example if you find just 400 ppm calcium in PRO-REEF at 1.025 the salt is adjusted to 424 ppm at 1.0264 s. g. which is allready slightly more than the natural concentration (412 ppm).

Now let´s come back to the KH. The natural KH is just 6.5° dKH at 35 ppt salinity. Our PRO-REEF is adjusted to 7° dKH at 35 ppt salinity. Do your customers claim to find less than 6° dKH at 1.025 s. g.? The cited natural KH is published in Frank J. Milleros scientific book "Chemical Oceanography", second ed., 1996, as "normalized total alkalinity" of about 2320 micromol per kilogramm."

[MORAY]

Well, the recipe may yield the best salt but I wonder how much it deviates batch to batch and how often QC is done now that the salt has been out for over a year. It could easily be manufactured for them and shipped out without TM ever seeing it and that manufacturer could be changing ingredients without approval.

I think most people don’t test the water they make for Alk, Ca, and Mg and certainly not on a normal basis. In discussing that with other hobbyists it just seems that it never popped into their mind. I’ve tested many batches of IO and it’s been pretty consistent, but it’s only within the past two years that I tested for Alk, Ca, and Mg. I was shocked the first time I ran those test and Mg was 1050 with Ca at 350-375.

I did some searching on RC and then the internet as a whole and I couldn't find anything on this problem with TM Pro. But, this salt has such a small percentage of users compared to IO so it will not get the publicity that the IO problem did. You should post this in the Reef Chemistry forum to give it more exposure.

[Reefmedic79]

I've got a batch currently mixing, and will post results of my tests shortly.

[Hans-Werner]

Hallo together,

I´m Hans-Werner Balling, product manager of Tropic Marin, allready cited by Me No Nemo above.

To make sure that a package really has concentrations that aren´t the claimed ones you will have to mix the complete package. During the transportation the salt can dismix in the package by vibrations that make lighter salts move upwards and the heavyer ones sinking to the bottom.

I can assure that the ingredients of every mix are weighed and the assemblage is controlled by a second person prior to mixing to avoid mistakes.

There might be minor differences in between the packages of one batch but we do everything to keep them really small.

We use PRO-REEF in three separate systems with 300 gall. each and test the fresh saltwater mixes and I never found concentrations as stated by George. We keep LPS, SPS, leather and soft corals and of course fishes in our aquaria. In this way we try to make sure that our products are as good and safe as possible for the user.

In my opinion it is not necessary to aerate the saltwater mix prior to using it. I circulate the water of the saltwater mix with a powerhead and use the saltwater as soon as it has become clear. The pH I test then is usually 8.2.

Regards

Hans-Werner

[waterfaller1]

Wow...all the way from Germany to make this right!Impressive!
Since you say there is settling of the salts in the mix,would turning it into another bucket several times avoid this problem?

[Hans-Werner]

Hallo Waterfaller,

I´m not sure. It also depends from the quantity of saltwater that you will make up, means the amount of salt you will take out of the bucket. I would make up at least 20 to 30 gall. of saltwater out of a 200 gall. PRO-REEF bucket.
Best would be to give the content of the bucket in a plastic tub, mix it and take salt from different places to make up 20 to 30 gall. of saltwater.
This is a bit of work but I think it is necessary to make a responsible statement.

I hope my English is good enough that you understand what I want to say.

Regards

Hans-Werner

[rutz81]

english is fine, thanks for the feedback!

FYI:
Your rep. at MACNA this year was very informative and helpful.

Dave

[MORAY]

This makes a lot of sense and I don't think any of us had considered this. With different particle sizes and weights it makes perfect sense that this would happen.

This is very impressive customer service and teamwork. First, Marcye (Sea in the City) got involved without being asked and sought out an answer. Then, Hans with Tropic Marin created an account on RC to directly address this issue. With only one person having a problem Hans got involved while we have all seen much greater issues on other products go unaddressed.

Bravo to Sea in the City and Tropic Marin!

[Me No Nemo]

Thanks Moray...I personally use Tropic Marin Pro and my tanks have done very well with it. We also use Tropic Marin exclusively in the store. I never want to recommend anything that I can't feel good about so I am very glad that Hans-Werner from Tropic Marin stepped in so quickly. I had an answer to my original email first thing on the next business day so I am very impressed with their concern and consideration. Yes, it does make sense now that it's explained. I always move the product into an airtight container at the store so that probably mixes the product there as we have tested the water we've made in the past few days and the numbers have been pretty consistant. Thanks Hans-Werner for your quick response!

[Me No Nemo]

Just as a thought to pass on, I bought an airtight dog food container at Petsmart with a screw on lid in order to keep our salt mixes fresh. This works great and keeps the salt very powdery. I know some customers have mentioned their salt hardening, but it's after the bag or bucket wasn't sealed properly. These containers are easy to store...easy to open and transferring the salt takes only a few minutes. It seems since the store's mix seems consistant that the transfer to the container has an additional benefit as it mixes the salt as well. Marcye

[Hans-Werner]

Thanks to Moray from my side too and to Marcye for drawing my attention to the problems with PRO-REEF and the excellent tips.

Hans-Werner

[Hans-Werner]

Thanks of course also to Dave for the commends.

Hans-Werner

[cdraughon]

FWIW, I recently switched to TM. The first batch I made a few weeks ago, the number were 8.18 (Ph), 350 (Ca), 7.4 (Kh). I did not have a Mg test kit at the time. Temp was 79 and SG wat 1.026.

I'm currently making a new batch now, and will test.

[55reeforlando]

I use regular TM but I swear by it. I think it is definitely the best salt on the market. I'm impressed by this great customer service. Thanks TM.

George- Would like to meet up with you soon. Gimme a call. 954-214-9390

[cdraughon]

Just tested my new batch of salt. I use Salifert test kits. SG is 1.0276.

Ca = 400
dkh=8.3
Mg = 1440

[smpolyp]

I think this hit home with Moray about the shipping. He use to work on a boat and had to relace bulbs all the time due to the vibration. This makes sense like a giant sifter.
Hans-Werner would it be best for us over seas to get the salt in the bag? Like the 300gal? Would this help to cut down on the vibration the plastic bucket goes through during shipping?

[Hans-Werner]

Hello cdraughon,

are we speaking about our Tropic Marin Sea Salt or about PRO-REEF?

Hello smpolyp,

I think it should be better with the bags, but I think it is no serious problem with the "separated" salt in the aquarium. The concentrations are only shifted a bit, nothing that would cause problems in your aquarium and after using up the complete bucket all salts are in your aquarium in the original relations or at least nearly so.
I think this discussion is more about what we test and not about the effects in the aquarium.

Hans-Werner