The Frankenskimmer!!!!!

[H.crispa]

OK guys, Snowy and I have a little project going here I want to document. Some of you saw us squatting on the floor at the end of the meeting beside this insanely fat, short skimmer tossing ideads back and forth, scribbling down sketches, ideas, and doing some rough calculations. Here is what it is all about.

We are taking a Lifereef skimmer, doing a recirc mod, cutting the inner riser tube down by 1/2 to 3/4, popping off the top and adding flanges to facilitate easy cleaning, fabricating a new "cone top" to fit on the flanges, welding on the original neck and collection cup to the cone top, adding a flange to the collection cup lid to seal it off and then adding on a MASSIVE needle wheel recirc pump to fill the rediculously large reaction chamber volume with froth.

OK. Everyone got all that???? If not, read it again. Snowy, did I miss anything??? I'll do some mock up calculations and all that BS and post it in a few days just to give people a numbers kind of reference point to get a feel for what we are trying-- strike that-- GOING to achieve with these mods and to let you all know why we chose to do each one of them and why.

We had an awesome little brainstorming session there on the floor- a meeting of the minds so to speak. There were several club members present and contributing but I'm sorry I can't remember who all was there. I was off in reefgeek la-la-land envisioning this thing as it took shape. But, in a matter of 30 minutes or so of tossing ideas around I had a working prototype in my head and partly on paper. This thing is going to be absolutely ridiculous!!!!

First, here is what we start with:

Note the measurements etc. They may come in handy later.

Next, here is the unmodded skimmer in action:

Note how LITTLE of that HUGE reaction chamber is actually being used!!!! We aim to fix that.

Here is a photo of what we plan to cut off to increase the reaction chamber volume:


Here is the size and shape of the conical top we will be installing:


Here is the collection cup on top of the mock up/pattern of the cone top. (If anyone asks me if I'm planning on using paper for the cone top, I'm afraid I'll have to kill you. You are breathing perfectly good oxygen that normal people need.)


Lots more to come folks. Stay tuned. This skimmer will be a freakin' MONSTER!!!

[Aquayne_wv]

You can make your paper model stiff enough to make a mold by dabbing on super glue all over untill stiff. Then go to
www.hobbycast.net

Wayne

[Aquayne_wv]

If you look at my video. You are building a Euroreef type skimmer. I acheived the cone or taper by using pvc fittings. Went from a 4" to a 1 1/2" pipe size leading up to the collection cup.

[wvdaisy]

Wayne's video is super! Lots of helpful info.

[H.crispa]

what about acrylic? I seem to recall some homebrewers casting tap handles out of some acrylic resin.

[Whaledriver]

You might be better off and save more money in the long run to sell this skimmer and buy an ASM skimmer. A ASM skimmer with a recirculation mod is about as efficient as you can get without spending big bucks.

Just an idea no offense to any type or brand of skimmer. Some times mods lower the resale value of skimmers to the point of makeing them too expensive in the long run.

[firefish2020]

"Some times mods lower the resale value of skimmers to the point of makeing them too expensive in the long run."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Prob so but Jason is known for his mods, yep they can run into some $$$ but after he's done you would never think of re-selling it anyway LOL.

[H.crispa]

I am sure that it would be cheaper to have bought a different skimmer in the first place however, this one is bought and paid for and when I'm done there won't be anything like it out there, period.

Hey Snowy, check this out: http://www.greatbigstuff.com/martini.html

If this were plastic, our search would be over.

[firefish2020]

Heres the place I was trying to find.
Pricy indeed, but wow just imagine


http://www.emachineshop.com/

[mcox33]

Jason go to the nitro dollar general on the wall (to the left when you walk in the door) about half way down maybe a little farther they have a nice jug (plastic) I have been thinking it would make a good skimmer cone and don't ask diameter as I don't remember anyway check it out it's only like $1.00
just might work for you

[H.crispa]

Thanks Mary, I'll take a look.

Well, I went ahead and dismantled the skimmer. For those of you who are a bit squeemish, I suggest you look away.

[H.crispa]

Oh, by the way Snowy, it is kind of too late to change your mind now. He He! By the way, I think I may know someone who can make us a mold/template around which to wrap the plexi. In essence, we would have our own mold and fabricate our own part. Inaddition, she may have the connections to get us the materials we need to cast or extrude this form. Don't get too excited yet! I'm still working on this.

[snowstar]

Hey Jason --- Finally getting to post on this .... yes everything is looking good and you are so on target with what we were discussing. So far I am not worried at all about the dismanteling acutally it looks good especially since I know what is going to happen to it! Now, for the pump info - I am ordering an Ocean Runner 2700 and having it shipped to Jo-Mars should be there next week. We are still planing on feeding this with a maxi-jet 1200 right?

The bigstuff site would be perfect if it were not glass.... I've been trying to find something in labware.... like fisher scientific not luck yet... so the let's roll our own is the best option yet....

This is going to be a truly awesome skimemr.... possibly out performing most other needle wheels because the water to air ratio is going to be pretty much perfect at the magic 80/20, while the turnover is going to be greatly reduced using just a power head for the feed... the whole air volumn is going to be so cool anyway --- Jason thanks for taking this on - my acrylic skills are non-existant so - I probably would have shelved this skimmer and bought a beckett. I'm still not sure why I was unhappy with 64oz of black stuff a week but I was.. so please mod on and keep us "posted"

[H.crispa]

We might be advised to go with a 3500. I'm doing some rough calculations on the volume right now.

Ok, I just ran the numbers. The interior volume of a Turboflotor is 235.62 cubic inches. After removing all but the last three inches of the inside column, the volume of the Frankenskimmer will be 275 cubic inches for a difference of 40 cubes. So, I'm guessing that the 2700 will work just fine. At this point it is pretty clear that we will need a bubbletrap for the discharge.

Oh, and yes, I think an MJ1200 will be just perfect for the feed. I just had a thought too-- we might be able to build a centrifugal bubble seperator out of the leftover center column.

[H.crispa]

Interesting. I just found a piece of 3/8" acrylic sheet I can use for the cone. So I went to this website: http://mathcentral.uregina.ca/QQ/dat....99/john2.html
To calculate the dimensions and how to lay out the pattern on the acrylic, then used my Dremel circle cutter, and a compass, and a sharpie, to cut out the pattern and here is what I ended up with:

Notice the funnel in the picture. This is what I will use to heat and bend the acrylic around. I hope this does not end up looking like some failed rescue attempt from Gilligan's Island. Oh well, we shall see. Meantime the search continues for the perfect cone.

[bneal3]

QUOTE]Originally posted by H.crispa

Notice the funnel in the picture. This is what I will use to heat and bend the acrylic around. I hope this does not end up looking like some failed rescue attempt from Gilligan's Island. Oh well, we shall see. Meantime the search continues for the perfect cone. [/QUOTE]
Jason you are always doing a great job! But if it ends up like failed rescue attempt from Gilligan's Island I sure it was a great adveture. Good Luck!

[firefish2020]

Either way theres more than one way to get off the island

[H.crispa]

Yeah. Failed rescue attempt. The acrylic was too thick to be evenly heated long enough and without blistering to make this idea work. Total diasaster. My next idea was to heat up a big circle and stretch it over the funnel. This worked a little better but still no go. If only I had the proper equipment! Oh well, I still have a few tricks up my sleeve. They are just more complicated.

Next up, I'll go over to WVSU and see if my friend Molly can throw down on the pottery wheel, a tapered cone of the proper dimensions, fire it off, and then I can perhaps get a slightly thinner acrylic sheet and bake it over the cone in the oven. This will give me even controlled heat and a no-touch shaping mechanism. Plus it is absolutely certain to stink up the house. Of course, I'll have to leave Camille at the pet store for a day or two until I'm sure the plastic fumes are vented. (Teflon isn't the only plastic that gives off fumes that will kill birds.)

If only I could just find that piece! You know what would be perfect? Have you seen those coin donation things where you put the coin in this chute and it exits into an inverted tapered cone and spirals around and around until it goes into the collection bucket at the bottom???? Yeah. One of those. Made out of clear plastic (acrylic).

[LtPiper]

WSAZ had one of those at the Taste of Charleston this weekend.

[H.crispa]

No schitt? With a clear funnel?????
There is treachery afoot!

[Danger731]

is there ETOH invloved in this ?

[H.crispa]

I have no idea. What is ETOH???

Anyway, I just heard that Bob Denver, the actor who played Gilligan has just passed away from complications from cancer. I think he has spent the past 30 years as a resident of Bluefield, WV. WV for sure but Bluefield??

In any case, the Gilligan's Island reference was only a coincidence. May Mr. Denver rest in peace.

[snowstar]

Hey Jason --- I talked to Jay and put the pump on hold.... I had initially ordered the 2700 - but a post seems to indicate that you want to use the 3700 (needle-wheel version of the 3500).... is that so? I am still looking for an acrylic cone also.... not haveing any luck on a pre-fab. I'm gonna call a local glass shop today - I think they also work in acrylic - I'll let you know what I find. anyway back to the pump. Do you want me to order the 3700? We are really looking for an Erlenmyer flask right??? Well no go on the glass shop.... but would a 1000ml erlenmyer flask that is a nalgene polycarbonate work???

As for our discussion about the type of glue/cement used by Jeff this is from the web site
"Acrylic Cement, Weld-On #16 thickened acrylic cement, great for gluing PVC to acrylic: $8.00 (PVC cement WILL NOT WORK on acrylic)
Acrylic Cement, Weld-On #40 two-part component cement. Best for gluing tubing or cylindricals to flat sheet. 1 pint (16 fl.oz.)"

sorry it is taking me so long to post ---- I seem to be having a problem at the day job some posts are working some are not .... so if the post doesn't go through, I wind up copying the text to "notepad" and hoping I will remember to do it when I get home....

[firefish2020]

In any case, the Gilligan's Island reference was only a coincidence. May Mr. Denver rest in peace.

[H.crispa]

Holy Moly Snow! So much info all at once. I think the 2700 will work. On the other hand, I doubt using the bigger one would hurt. You make the call. I don't think it will mater either way, but the big one might give a greater degree of adjustability-- or it might just be plain 'ol too darned big. Honestly, we are in uncharted territory here so we are "feeling" our way through it.

All that said! I am going to post an email that I recieved from the original designer/manufacturer of this skimmer. I contacted him! Our relationship is amiable. Ain't no bad blood here! After all, I am toying with his baby here!!! I need to make it perfectly clear out of respect for this skimmer's designer, that we are not correcting any flaws. It performs exactly as he intended. We are doing a complete redesign. The finished product will in no way reflect either positively or negatively, on the original skimmer.

Now I must say that I am a chronic tinkerer. I figure Jeff is as well. So from one tinkerer to another, here is Jeff's email to me:

Jason,

Please read this in normal manner. It was not meant to be taken in a
defensive tone...

When I designed this skimmer it was modeled after two very popular skimmers
back in 1988, or thereabouts. Each skimmer had some good ideas but each
skimmer had one serious problem: excessive bubbles leaving the skimmer going
into the sump and then fouling the aquariums water clarity. This is the same
problem that many of the "new" skimmers on the market have, excessive
bubbles leaving the skimmer.

So, the design of the Lifereef skimmer is such that that inner riser column
keeps the bubbles near the top of the skimmer and not closer to the bottom
where they can leave the skimmer body.

Its not that the large diameter is not being fully used and filled with
bubbles. It was made this large to keep the downward water flowing at a pace
that would not drag the bubbles along with the water thus keeping the water
leaving the skimmer bottom free of bubbles.

By shortening the inner column and blowing in more bubbles you will have a
skimmer that in my opinion is going to have lots of bubbles leaving the
skimmer. If they leave the skimmer what good is it to have the body full of
bubbles?
That is the problem that these high-flow "new" skimmers have, excessive
bubbles leaving the skimmer.

It is the job of the skimmer to retain the bubbles, not the sumps job to
filter them out.

In all my years of making this skimmer I rarely have complaints on its
performance. Not so with many of the recent skimmers as I get complaints
from customers who have these other skimmers and are looking for one that
retains the bubbles, and, is less maintenance.

There are other problems with skimmers flowing lots of water and injesting
lots of air and again why I won't design or build a skimmer of this type. I
like the Lifereef as is as it gives good performance with very little
maintenance.

So let me know what happens with you modifications.

Jeff
lifereef@denver.net


Here is my response to him:
I appreciate your input Jeff. I also need to tell you that my planned
modifications were not intended to "correct" any design flaws. I was not
picking on your design. In fact, I and the rest of the folks involves in this project studied it for quite a long time and quite a pow wow before
deciding on what to do. It really is quite a brilliant design. While
tinkering with it in our heads, when we changed one parameter, we inevitably
screwed up another! In other words, the skimmer is in ballance and
untweakable. It seemed "tweaking" the skimmer was simply not something that
could be done. It seemed logical that the large outer chamber was intended
to slow the velocity of the water exiting the skimmer, thus keeping the
bubbles out of the effluent. This it does quite well. Therefore we decided
on pretty much reconfiguring the parts of the skimmer and adding some new
ones, into a new design.Our intent was to completely change the character of
the skimmer and see what we could do with it-- in essence, to make it "big"
enough to handle a much larger aquarium than it was intended to handle.

No doubt a "bubble trap" will have to be fabricated to address the problems
we will create by sawing off the inner riser. Also the cone top was decided
on to address the other problem we will be creating-- twice the bubble froth
exiting the 3" neck of the skimmer. This would at best make lots of really
wet foam. Most likely, it would become a geyser, blowing off froth into the
sump or floor. I have modded a seaclone (of all things!) by recirculating
and adding a cone in the collection cup to address the "wet foam" problem.
It worked amazingly well. You can see it here down near the bottom of the
page:

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=633322
It is actually what gave us the idea to try to reconfigure your skimmer. In
any case, I am now a fan of the cone. It allows the foam to condense and
gradually increases the velocity of the air leaving the skimmer, thus making
a drier foam and preventing a geyser. I understand you are not a fan of the
cone. I personally feel it works in certain situations. We will be sure to
keep you informed of what happens.

Hey, we may come up with a real performer (I'm optimistic and I think we
will.) or we may totally screw up what used to be a perfectly fine,
effective skimmer. Time will tell. We'll keep you posted.


There we go kiddies!