Is bagged live sand really "live"?

netboy · #1 08/08/2005, 07:46 AM

Hi, I am new to the forums but have been reading A LOT and searching A LOT. But I am not sure if im looking in the right spot or not. My question is bagged live sand like Carib Sea really live? I was looking into gettingt some because i really didn't see too many other options, but the crap is kind of expensive I think. I live in Central California and I know most people use south down and i know its an urban legend here. So other than grabbing sand from an established tank localy, what else can i do? Thanks for any input.

romunov · #2 08/08/2005, 08:19 AM

Well, sand really can't be alive since it doesn't exhibit the signs of life like metabolism.

But seriously, most sand is just wet sand with a lot of bacteria and of course organic stuff. Some people report seeing copepods and amphipods and the like, but those bags are probably rare. You could use sand from a "clean" beach or desert.

Willie_6 · #3 08/08/2005, 08:33 AM

You get hitchhikers too that also make it "live." I got some Astria stars in mine. Not sure if that is a good thing or not.

netboy · #4 08/08/2005, 08:37 AM

so does this mean that bagged live sand has a shelf life? if so what is it?

fragaholic · #5 08/08/2005, 09:00 AM

there is a experation date on the bag. IMO the bagged "live" sand only has bacteria and not any worms or pods or anything like that. It is beneficial and a good idea to use it but if you want to have a diverse sandbed then you will need to get some scoops from a LFS tank or a freind.

Dazed And Confused · #6 08/08/2005, 09:06 AM

Check out Bill's Reef. His is aquacultured and the 5 lbs I got from him was chock full of critters that I could see - lots of tube worms, pods, a couple of nassarius snails and who knows what kind of stuff I couldn't see. He bags it and sends it same day - mine was supposed to have been 2 day shipping and it made it overnight. Bill's was recommended a while back by Dr. Ron and I'm happy with my order. HTH

ledford1 · #7 08/08/2005, 09:13 AM

I see no reason to buy only the Arag-alive, or other bagged live sand. It might help to have a bag to help add diversity to a sandbed though. It's just a bit more expensive than some other options.

I would suggest getting in contact with a local reef club and see if anyone could donate some of their sand to you.

I would buy mostly dry sand and then seed it with perhaps a bag of the LS and hopefully some LS from another person's tank.

Good luck.

Welcome to RC!

"Umm, fish?" · #8 08/08/2005, 09:28 AM

Ask yourself this: will you be able to notice the difference between six month old bagged live sand and dry sand that's been wet two weeks with an ammonia source? I doubt it. But how would you even tell? Remember, all of the stuff in those bags that're supposed to be alive need food and oxygen. How are they living in there? I never see any advertising explaining how _that_ miracle is occurring.

Bacteria comes free with water and a source of ammonia (like, say, a small pinch of fish food). Dry aragonite sand is cheap and not as hard to carry as bagged wet stuff. Don't believe the hype.

Now, I fully believe that there is a benefit to seeding your system with _really_ live sand. I just can't believe they're getting $25.00 for 10lbs. of sand and water. Sheesh.

xtrstangx · #9 08/08/2005, 11:06 AM

The CaribSea stuff isn't really "live sand". It is however a really good start for your sand bed. I would get 10 pounds of that to every pound of real live sand. You can get real live sand from a friend's tank, the LFS, or online.

ReeferJones · #10 08/08/2005, 12:10 PM

I hate caribsea "live" sand. I used it on my first tank, and omg southdown kicks its butt big time, in pretty much every aspect.

Katana_user · #11 08/08/2005, 12:51 PM

Well... I was at 8.0 ppm Nitrate reading and 0.0 Nitrite and Ammonia 16 days after new tank startup on my 90 gallon with 70 pounds of uncured liverock and just the Carib Sea Arag-alive. I've got no complaints.
Sure I'm supplementing the pods and worms to get it to be a diverse population through various means. But it did have the bacteria needed to shorten my cycle convincingly. Southdown? Nothing against it except who can find it reliably without travelling hundreds of miles... I can find and buy Carib Sea at multiple places locally. It's too darned expensive... but it did work.

dntx5b9 · #12 08/08/2005, 05:32 PM

I am also new to SW and to the forum. I posted few of questions on a different thread, but with regards to livesand, I think I am only going to go with LR and regular "dry" sand that I have been using for my FW setup. Now, someone said that I shouldn't use silicate based sand. But most dry sand (play sand) are silicate based. So, is it bad? Aren't beach sand silicate based as well? Can silicated base sand successfully host bacteria and other "critters"?

"Umm, fish?" · #13 08/08/2005, 06:17 PM

You can get bulk dry aragonite sand at your LFS. Mine sells 50# bags for about $50-$55. Aragonite helps to buffer your system's alkalinity and does so at a PH that you would actually see in a reef tank. Play sand doesn't help you out that way and some say that it might contribute to diatom blooms (though some also say it doesn't). Calcium carbonate substrate could help to buffer your tank, but only if your PH were dangerously low.

WY_REEFER · #14 08/08/2005, 06:26 PM

What is the web site for Bill's reef?

greenbean36191 · #15 08/08/2005, 06:28 PM

Silica sand is fine, and many of the experts recommend it since it's cheaper. The big concern is finding the right grain size. See Dr. Ron's forum for info on that.

The buffering of aragonite is really very minor. The pH needed to dissolve it only occurs deep in the sand bed where by design the water is moving very slowly. If your sandbed is making any measurable contribution to your alkalinity you have major chemistry problems and a shrinking sandbed.

Dazed And Confused · #16 08/08/2005, 06:28 PM

http://billsreef.safeshopper.com

tide_ben · #17 08/08/2005, 06:34 PM

http://billsreef.safeshopper.com/

ben

WY_REEFER · #18 08/08/2005, 06:41 PM

Found his web site,

How good is the live sand?

I have paid a lot money for live sand in the past and I wasn't impressed.

dntx5b9 · #19 08/08/2005, 06:48 PM

greenbean, thanks for the info. Cool, I will go ahead and use the existing sand. I was going to buy livesand, but it is too expensive. By the way, who's the cutie?

"Umm, fish?" · #20 08/08/2005, 10:05 PM

I'm sorry greenbean36191, but I don't understand your criticism. If I may:

Quote:

The buffering of aragonite is really very minor.

Isn't that a good thing? "Only bad things happen quickly in an aquarium." What I want is something that gives me a slow, steady push upwards on ALK to counteract all the acids entering the system daily.

Quote:

The pH needed to dissolve it only occurs deep in the sand bed where by design the water is moving very slowly.

Everything I've read says that aragonite starts to slowly dissolve at pH > 8.0. Other calcite materials start dissolving when pH < 7.6 (which is majorly whacked water chemistry). Maybe you are thinking of crushed coral sand? Silica sand, however, makes no contribution to ALK any way you slice it.

Quote:

If your sandbed is making any measurable contribution to your alkalinity you have major chemistry problems and a shrinking sandbed.

I agree that any contribution a sandbed makes to alkalinity means that the sandbed is shrinking. That's the point. I'm dissolving chemicals into the water. Aragonite sand inside the aquarium seems to me like it's a very, very slow moving calcium reactor. To me, it seems worthwhile to supplement my sandbed every couple of years with the benefit of higher alkalinity (with all the benefits that gives to maintaining pH) the whole time.

But, I am interested to hear and learn. Since I am obviously missing the force of your criticism and since this is obviously something you believe strongly, please tell me what I am missing.

Thanks!