Clownfish in Pairs?

[dga]

i purchased one percula for a 12 gal tank. this is the only fish that resides in it, other than some cleanup guys. its about 1 inch long and is always at the front of the tank swimming rapidly back and forth like a fish that is ready to be fed. it was tanked raised and my question is should i purchase another of the same species and size for companionship or is it good to go alone.

[TCTFish]

It will be hard to pair your percula. If it's a true percula and not a false percula (occelaris), then you may be better off with just the one. Clowns are hard to introduce another clown to...even tank raised if they've spent some time alone in a small tank. It'd even be just as much of a risk with a false perc in that size tank (though normally they do seem to tolerate each other in loose groups...unlike true percs which can be just as aggressive as a tomato clown). Try putting in a fake plant. SeaGarden have some really nice fabric (not plastic) taht replicate saltwater macro algae. Clowns have been known to kind of treat the fake plant as an anemone. Actually kind of funny to watch a clown shove food into it's plant. We know the plant's not going to eat it, but the clown doesn't...lol. Check your tank too for any toxins like ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. Make sure temp is set stable and that the salinity is where it should be. You want to eliminate the probability of water quality being a problem first before looking into other reasons why the fish is being hyperactive.

It is possible the clown is associating you for the food. They are smart. They can associate who feeds them. Refrain from feeling sorry for it and do not feed the fish every time he begs. Reason being is because most fish do not feel when they are full. They do not know when to stop. An average saltwater fish should consume up to five minutes worth of food per day. In a reef with good live rock and plenty of natural food, feeding should be done only about two to three times a week. In your tank, feed daily minus a day or two within the week. Better to feed small amounts several times a day instead of one large feed. More nutrients are used by the fish which equals less waste which equals better nitrate control. However, do not exceed five minutes worth of food in a single day. That can lead to over feeding and excess waste.

A 10,000 gallon tank, huh? LOL...I'm guessing that's a typo? That'd be the mother reef!! You could go diving in it. I've always wondered what it would take to convert a swimming pool here in natural sunny Southern California into a reef system. Wouldn't need artificial lighting...LOL.

[JHardman]

Originally posted by TCTFish
It will be hard to pair your percula. If it's a true percula and not a false percula (occelaris), then you may be better off with just the one. Clowns are hard to introduce another clown to...even tank raised if they've spent some time alone in a small tank. It'd even be just as much of a risk with a false perc in that size tank (though normally they do seem to tolerate each other in loose groups...unlike true percs which can be just as aggressive as a tomato clown).

Sorry but this is not correct. Please take a minute and read the "pairing clownfish" section of the FAQ at the top of the forum.

[TCTFish]

JHardman, I appreciate the reference, but my answer is from experience, not what someone has written. This peron is talking about a 12 gallon tank. There is a risk of the one in the tank not accepting a second in his or her territory. It's not impossible, but the risk is greater in a small aquarium. I've seen it over and over as the years have gone by.

[LargeAngels]

TCTFish: I guess all the dozen pairs I had over the years paired/living and spawning in 10 gallon tanks was a fluke. Many breeders out there breed percs and ocellaris in 10 gallon tanks.

[TCTFish]

LargeAngels: I guess all the dozen pairs I had over the years paired/living and spawning in 10 gallon tanks was a fluke. Many breeders out there breed percs and ocellaris in 10 gallon tanks.

What my answer is simply stating is that it is best to get the pairs already together...or introduced shortly after one another. The longer a single clown stays alone in a territory, the harder it becomes to find a mate that clown will accept, especially in a small aquarium only because the fish getting attacked usually can't get away. Many people end up going through several potential pairings before their clown decides "hey. I like this one" and doesn't shred the fish to death. Occelaris clowns are easier because they are more accepting when trying to pair and that they can live a single life just fine if that's what the poster chooses.

I didn't state you can't breed these clowns in a small tank. Just simply warned of the risks involved in pairing under certain situations. Clowns are not impossible to pair, but there are rules of thumb to go by for better success at it. If the poster knows which one they have (true perc or false perc), they can then make the best decision on prepping themselves for attempting a pairing. This way, if the poster does attempt a pairing and the new guy gets attacked, it won't come as such a shocking surprise. Shocking surprises has a way of chasing people out of the hobby.

[Atticus]

Hmmm... My "rule of thumb" when making my broodstock pairs is to let a single clown live by itself for an extended period before pairing it. This allows that clown to become female and experiance a growth spurt. The damage done to each other during pairing is done while deciding dominance. This method decides dominance for them and eliminates the need to fight. Also, you may want to check who is replying to your posts on this board as many are breeders not casual clown keepers and we know our clowns from true experiance....

Also, purchasing wild caught pairs is horrible practice as one usually dies in transit or in QT. Why not promote building your own captive bred pairs? Not as hard as you may think if done correctly.

BTW "Rule of Thumb" actually came from a law that allowed men to beat their wives with any stick smaller in diameter than their thumb so you may not want to take that saying so lightly in the future...

[JHardman]

Originally posted by TCTFish
JHardman, I appreciate the reference, but my answer is from experience, not what someone has written.

And I wrote that based on mine of other experienced clownfish keepers experience. I am sorry, but I completely disagree with you.

[TCTFish]

We all seem to encounter different situations with the same issues. This hobby is good for that...lol. I tend to let people know the whole picture of possiblities. I do support captive breeding. However, the prices on wild caught are still way too much lower than captive bred for it to make much of a difference on the consumer end. Captive raised need to become cheaper if the majority of consumers are going to purchase them. The hardest thing about breeding clowns is raising the fry on proper food. Other than that, it's a piece of cake. Why more people aren't breeding is beyond me.

My most failed attempts on pairing clowns was when the little male was introduced to the female. This is mostly with the larger clowns like maroons and tomatos. One particular incident that took me by surprise...I put a male maroon in with a female. I would watch and watch...and watch for at least 15 minutes if not more. Everything seemed all hunky dory. I turned away for two minutes and the male was just shredded to almost nothing. Same thing happened to bossman a few days later. Luckily we were able to save the males and grow their fins back. I couldn't believe it. After that we've always introduced the female to the male. These fish can be insane. Percs can be the same way...at least the true percs., though I see false percs get aggressive on each other all the time. As I generally say, anything can happen when you put animals in a see through box. They can defy us of what we know at any given time.

Is that really where that saying came from??? OMG!! LOL. that's really mean. Where'd you find that out?

[MarinaP]

Originally posted by TCTFish
The hardest thing about breeding clowns is raising the fry on proper food. Other than that, it's a piece of cake.

You have not raised any fry, have you?

[TCTFish]

JHardman...Different situations are going to give different results and in most cases, when a clown is in a tank by itself for a long time, it is difficult to find an acceptable mate. They can be brutal if they don't accept the partner you hope they do. Simple. I'm not defying anything in anyones writings or experiences, but this is a hobby that some things may work for most, but not for all. Evidently, I've had different experiences.

[TCTFish]

MarineP...the difficulty with the food is the proper size. Many people don't want to get into rotifers and therefore bail out on raising them. It wouldn't surprise me if that were the main reason why people don't even bother breeding a lot of marine fish. That's the number one complaint I hear about raising marine fry...not having an available source of very small foods.

[Atticus]

Originally posted by TCTFish
Is that really where that saying came from??? OMG!! LOL. that's really mean. Where'd you find that out?

Psychology professor...


Funny thing is you brought up 3 more things I disagree with in your last post...

1. "However, the prices on wild caught are still way too much lower than captive bred for it to make much of a difference on the consumer end."
This is only true on some species 70-80% of the A. Ocellaris you see in wholesaler's tanks these days are captive bred as an example. Plus, if LFS employees would explain the benefits of captive bred to their customers and their employers the amount of WC coming in could be drastically lowered. I have a LFS that only carries captive bred clowns except for when I need fresh brrodstock or they get a deal on the noncaptive bred species. Most online vendors also offer captive bred only, Drs. Foster and Smith for an example.

2. "The hardest thing about breeding clowns is raising the fry on proper food. Other than that, it's a piece of cake. Why more people aren't breeding is beyond me."
The reason many are not captive breeding clowns is because the food itself is not that easy to maintain long term let alone the fact that the fry will require you constant attention for 6 months minimum with many species needing 9-12 months to be worth a good selling price. It is not easy to keep a high density growout tank stable for a month let alone 12.

3. "I would watch and watch...and watch for at least 15 minutes if not more. Everything seemed all hunky dory."
It is not how long you watch that matters it is what you are watching for. When first introducing a new clown it is important to do so where you can get the male out if necissary, but in most cases it is not necissary. Watch for the female to charge the new mate. In maroons this is easy as the male will kiss her cheek spine as he submits. If the new clown submits readily you are 90% done. The other 10% will have come from your clown selection. When doing the established pairing it is important for the female to be over 2 inches with the new clown being under 1 inch. I personally find this method the easiest for the large species. Ocellaris and percuals I will buy 2 of like size and let them sort it out or do the size difference method depending on what I have on hand. For example, I currently have 2 large ocellaris females that will need to be size difference paired in the next few months. I have actually seen less carpet surfing and fin damage with the size differenc route so take that as you will.

[Atticus]

Originally posted by dga
i purchased one percula for a 12 gal tank. this is the only fish that resides in it, other than some cleanup guys. its about 1 inch long and is always at the front of the tank swimming rapidly back and forth like a fish that is ready to be fed. it was tanked raised and my question is should i purchase another of the same species and size for companionship or is it good to go alone.

LOL, sorry if we railroaded your thread DGA.

How long have you had your clown? I am willing to guess it is an A. Ocellaris which will make pairing it easier only for the fact that A. Ocellaris are far more readily found at your LFS. To be honest I personally would let it grow a bit before find it a "Friend" and I will also remind you to QT your new fish before adding it to your tank as Spring is a big Brook (Clownfish Disease) time of year and I would hate to see you lose both clowns.

[MarinaP]

Originally posted by TCTFish
It wouldn't surprise me if that were the main reason why people don't even bother breeding a lot of marine fish. That's the number one complaint I hear about raising marine fry...not having an available source of very small foods.

I have to disagree with that statement. L-strain rotifers are readily available from, for example, http://www.instant-algae.com, and other vendors.

[TCTFish]

Atticus...The size difference in this pair were obvious and there was absolutely no signs of rejection. We were all surprised to see the male had gotten nailed. She was about a good three plus inches or more. He was a little guy, less than half her size. Like I said, anything can happen when you put animals in a see through box. I've come to learn that there will always be someone somewhere with experiences that defy what we know...and it keeps us on our toes constantly learning.

Where I'm at, people can be cheap and not care if that captive bred specimen priced at least 2 to 3 times higher than a wild caught is a better choice. I wish that would change, but in reality, the majority of people will always lean toward the better price rather than the better choice...no matter how well we speak. I'm still trying to talk bossman into carrying more captive bred marine. We have carried some...captive raised asfer angels and arabian pseudochromis. The idea is to make selling captive raised over wild caught more attractive to the business owner. We still need to work on those really stubborn ones.

[Atticus]

ORA has a pretty decent price point and you can sell him on the fact that you don't lose 60% in the first week due to shipping stress and illness.

[TCTFish]

Originally posted by Atticus
ORA has a pretty decent price point and you can sell him on the fact that you don't lose 60% in the first week due to shipping stress and illness.

Maybe that's the problem. We must take real good care of our stock because our losses are much less than that. 60% is lot to lose. Bossman don't tolerate that. Oh no...and neither would I. He's concerned about his investment. I'm concerned about the fish. We both want the same results. Our fish are rested before coming into the store. That may be what makes the difference. Most of our problems stem from aggression instead of disease. I need another angle to tackle...lol.

[wantananemone]

I just paired a true perc with an onyx clown no problems at all. they didn't even go at each other once. The onyx clown was alone for almost a year too. If you want to breed I would get a small one so it hasn't gone female yet. If you don't want to breed i would say get one about the same size or a little bigger than the one that you already have.

[MarinaP]

Originally posted by wantananemone
If you don't want to breed i would say get one about the same size or a little bigger than the one that you already have.

They will not breed. They will just kill each other.

[oama]

Originally posted by MarinaP
They will not breed. They will just kill each other.

Are You Ready To Rumble!

[wantananemone]

maroons would fight but not an Ocellaris. I've put many of them together the same size with no problems. But maroons would be a different story.

[criccio]

While I have a large portion of the collective intelligence of this forum here I have a question about pairing (I hope you don't mind the hijack dga).


Is it safe to say that the majority of the time if two clowns get along that they will eventually spawn? Or can they co-exist peacefully while never spawning? In particular latezonatus.

[oama]

criccio

Latz? Shooting for the moon, are you?

FME, just like hosting, the fish will do what it wants to do when it is ready to do it

[TCTFish]

Originally posted by criccio
While I have a large portion of the collective intelligence of this forum here I have a question about pairing (I hope you don't mind the hijack dga).


Is it safe to say that the majority of the time if two clowns get along that they will eventually spawn?

I don't mind the hijack. Don't know about anyone else...lol. Anyway...

Good question. IMO, I don't think getting along guarantees a brood, but strengthens the potential. I'm sure other factors are involved when clowns prepare to spawn...such as finding a suitable site for egglaying, water quality, temperature, day and night cycles, etc. Provided everything is to their liking, most likely they will spawn.