Rotting mouth on Majestic Angel???

[nvert]

I have a 4" majestic angel with what appears to be some sort of mouth infection. It simply looks like the lips are swollen and torn. My LFS 'loaned' it out to me to see if I could nurse it back to health since my hospital tank contains established water from my 120g reef, rock from my sump and tank, macro algae, etc.

I only have had the fish a few hours but the LFS had it almost a week with the mouth condition not getting any better. The angel is not currently eating but it isn't sluggish (quite the opposite...very observant of people), has good color, good fins, and good weight.

Here's a pic (not the greatest)...hopefully you can help me out. Thanks.

Brad

[Emerald]

I would suggest treatment with Neomycin if you can find it at an LFS. If not, any good broad spectrum antibiotic should help. Most of them can be dosed at much higher doses than the packages state, let me know what you are treating with and I can advise on dosage.

I would also remove any LR and macro while treating with a broad spectrum.

[nvert]

Thanks...my LFS does not have Neomycin so I have a call out to local reefers. Also, this morning, there are clear indications of ick. The LFS water tested at 1.020 so the angel was acclimated to 1.025 over a period of 1.5 hours and I think this is why the ick kicked in. Do you have any suggestions on product names?

Thx.

[Emerald]

I would suggest treating the angel with hyposalinity. This will take care of the ich and it will also minimize the bacteria in the infection. Any broad spectrum antibiotic should do, even Maracyn 2 if thats all you can find.

Good luck!

[nvert]

Even though hyposalinity does a great job with ick, I do not agree on using this method because of the potential stress it can have on the fish. Excellant water conditions in the hospital tank along with appropriate medication is far less stressful.

[Emerald]

That is absolutely incorrect. Lower salinity eases osmoregulation, this greatly reduces physical stress on the fish. Their blood salinity is about 1/3 of NSW, making hyposalinity a very ideal treatment, and in fact can reduce stress.
Excellent water conditions are certainly the best you can do in any circumstance.
Some of the most appropriate medications can have downsides however. Copper will kill ich, but can contribute to secondary infections. Some antibiotics cause anorexia. There are many things to take into consideration when treating fish with any medication. Hyposalinity is one of the safest, gentlest, and cheapest treatments available.
HTH

[nvert]

Thanks Emerald but I still dissagree that hypo is the best and first measure toward care. As with everything, there are no *absolutes*, only gradiants of better and worse and IMO, particular to my situation, I did not argree that hypo was the safest, gentlest method....and cheap doesn't really support the arguement for better health.

Why put *potential* stress on a fish that comes from a natural environment where salinity is 1.025? Even though the animal *can* handle it? why do it as a remedy when the same results (i.e. bettering of health) can be accomplished under pristine water conditions that match as closely as possible its natural environment?

By the way, the ick dropped within 12hrs of fist appearing on the fish in my QT and I did not use hypo...only the established water from my 120g. I understand the ick life cycle but then I understand that EVERY tank has ick in it (yet we keep them at 1.025, not in hypo) and it only manifests itself with stress or poor environment conditions. The mouth is healing over quickly...combination of high water quality and Maracyn Plus. I only wonder if simply a good, established environment would stimulate healing. I think yes. But with a mouth as badly torn up as the angel had, I believed that antibiotics were necessary just in case there was a second, or third infection present.

Now, I just need to get the angel to feed.

[Steven Pro]

I understand the ick life cycle but then I understand that EVERY tank has ick in it (yet we keep them at 1.025, not in hypo) and it only manifests itself with stress or poor environment conditions.

If the later is what you really believe, then you don't truly understand the lifecycle of this parasite. If the parasite is not introduced somehow, then your fish can't catch it regardless of stress or poor environment.

[Emerald]

Well yes, sometimes healing can occur with excellent water parameters. Its always great when something clears up without further treatment.

However, your statements are still incorrect and quite outdated. I do apologize for being quite blunt. Cryptocaryon irritans is an obligate parasite, this is a fact. You can have an ich free tank if you take the necessary measures to do so. Saying it is always in every tank is completely false information, and I hate for future fish-keepers to mislead by that statement.

Depending on how long it has been, you may want to try some live brine to get him eating. If he will eat them, they can be enriched with Selcon or something similar for about 6hrs before feeding. Getting him back on good frozen stuff may take some time, depending on the rate his mouth is healing. Good luck!

[nvert]

Mucho mis-understanding!!

Agreed, unless you QT everything and everytime, your tank will always be exposed to a variety of unwanted things. IF one takes the proper methods such as QT then you can have an ick free tank as stated by experience of others and in research. But chances are, if you don't take these precautions, you have ick in your tank. I apologies for not being more clear concerning the context of my statement.

Definately QT.

[nvert]

Some reading I've found on ich and I apologies to any future fish-keepers if my statements were peceived to be off...

Part I: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...v2003/mini1.htm

Part II: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...c2003/mini2.htm

Part III: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...n2004/mini3.htm

Part IV: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...b2004/mini4.htm

Part V: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...r2004/mini5.htm