DSB or no DSB?

[Reef Junkie]

I know this topic has probably been drilled into the dirt already, but why?
Why is it DSB's are getting a bad rap lately?
People talking about tank cashes and blaming the DSB.
My good buddy has a DSB and his whole tank crashed and died during the blackout of 2003.
I can see where a DSB would contribute to this. (oxygen sucker) But where is the evidence that DSB's crash healthy working tanks? And Randomly to boot.
I'm not against or for a DSB, but hysteria, that's just plain wrong. Consumer confidence is low for a DSB.
Now, I'm not Dr. Ron, but I do see a common denominator with the DSB. DSB are all around a natural reef and we as hobbyists strive to keep our reefs as close to the real thing as possible.
Keep it natural and the creatures will adapt. I mean, this hobby started out with the likes of Albert Thiel. He's not a bad guy, but he was a proponent of uber technology that kept most people out of the hobby. Then we learn that Lee Chin Eng was right all along. Making it possible for poor people like me to get into the hobby.
Are we going backwards here? I mean, what kind of technology will replace the DSB?
Anyway, I have to go back to work.
rj

[Looper121]

I'll start, I used to have a DSB in my tank but it has since been removed as of about a year ago. Firstly, it was a pain in butt to settle. Secondly the fish always seemed to make a mess of the tank. (maybe this was just me). 3. those green/brown pockets of crap started to scare me after I starting reading about what others were saying about their crashes. 4. They take up so much space, my 40 gallon was a 25 after I had all that sand in there. 5. it isd tough to clean if you a get an algae bloom. These are just my .02

[Bomber]

Originally posted by Reef Junkie
But where is the evidence that DSB's crash healthy working tanks? And Randomly to boot.
I'm not against or for a DSB, but hysteria, that's just plain wrong.

Here's the discussion thread.
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=210605

and here's the scientific thread that backs it up.
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=263482

There's your evidence. It's not random either.

BTW I've been on top of these threads since day one. The only hysteria I've seen is people accusing the people that removed their sand beds of being hysterical.
Most of the people that have removed their sand beds have done so after giving it a lot of thought, reasoning, and made a educated decision to remove it.

That's not being hysterical.

[Reef Junkie]

Bomber, thanks for the quick reply(s)
Don't you work or something?
I'm going to need time to look over what you posted and I'll get back to you.
Thanks for your time,
rj

[Bomber]

Taking a tank apart and putting it back together to remove a sand bed is no easy task. It takes a lot of planning and thinking - and it's certainly not something that someone would do in a moment of hysteria.

Try using the "subscribe" function. It's a great tool.

[sesegal99]

Everyone needs to let it go already!

There is more than one way to skin a cat...there are long term successes with DSBs and there are long term sucesses with barebottoms and there are long term successes with plenums and there are long term successes with SSBs and..and...and...and. AND to all these there are also short term and long term crashes. Each has positives and negitives associated with them. We are trying to reproduce an OCEAN environment in a tiny aquarium which can NOT be perfectly done, and yes those 800g 1500g 2500g aquariums are TINY when compared to the huge nutrient sinks we call oceans. So everyone has opinions...but stop shoving your way down the throats of everyone else, b/c in the end it may not be the best way for that person. Put your experience out there and let people make their own decisions. I have made my decision based on info out there and use a DSB. My choice, I'll deal with it. I don't knock people with barebottom tanks b/c I think they look like and are very unnatural....who want's the look of a fish-store tank in their living room? Everyone should do what they want..this is a hobby that people take part in and enjoy and that is how it should be. How do you enjoy somthing that people tell you is wrong or is going to fail or this or that. You can't predict the future..For those out there deciding on what to do...do what you want...the worst thing that could happen is that you are forced to get more involved in your hobby to get your aquarium looking and functioning the way you want it.
Your post is in violation of the terms and conditions of use of this web site and has been edited. Further violations will result in revocation of your posting privileges.

[Bomber]

My my my.

You certainly have a opinion about other peoples opinions, don't you.

[MiddletonMark]

Wow, dude, mellow out.

You make some good points [no system is best for everyone, each has problems and `rules' that need to be followed] ... but then sound like the hysteria that Bomber was speaking of.

To each their own. I don't think a BB tank is `bulletproof', but I'm well aware that the DSB I was sold when setting my tank up sure isn't bulletproof either ... and as I see it, quick removal of detritus and nutrients seems a better idea than sinking them into sandbed and sandbed critters.

But then again, some people run skimmerless, or run all sorts of different systems that utilize sandbed methodology to their benefit. More power to them.

As for me, after removing one sandbed, I now have one tank with SSB and one just about bare as the stink, hassle, and tearing-tank-apart every few years of a DSB tank just isn't the maintenance I'm looking for.

Originally posted by sesegal99
I don't knock people with barebottom tanks b/c I think they look like **** and are very unnatural....who want's the look of a fish-store tank in their living room?

Thanks for not knocking me

[banzai75x]

Whats SSB mean

[DJ88©]

sesegal99

[flamealert]

[MiddletonMark]

SSB would mean shallow sandbed. In my case, it's about 3/4" of sand at the bottom of the tank. Enough for aesthetics, but not enough for a true `DSB'.

Probably will work as the same `sink' that a DSB will - and likely `fill up' faster ... but as it's in my softie/propagation tank; I'm ok with that and ok with maybe needing to replace it every year or so. As it's my second tank - I figured a little experimentation was good. Used to be a DSB, but I didn't like how that experiment worked out - so now it's a SSB.

[cadman]

Originally posted by banzai75x
Whats SSB mean

Shallow Sand Bed

[SPC]

Originally posted by sesegal99

This is a discussion board, if you don't wish to discuss the subject of this thread, then move to the next one.

There is more than one way to skin a cat...there are long term successes with DSBs

Please supply proof that there are long term successful DSB's that are set up and maintained in the way the experts have recommended.

and there are long term successes with SSBs

This is incorrect, there are no long term successes with SSB's that I am aware of.

So everyone has opinions...but stop shoving your way down the throats of everyone else, b/c in the end it may not be the best way for that person.

Who is doing this? Are you confused about the discussion board concept again?

My choice, I'll deal with it. I don't knock people with barebottom tanks b/c I think they look like **** and are very unnatural

Who is knocking people for their DSB tanks, as it pertains to the "look"?

How do you enjoy somthing that people tell you is wrong or is going to fail or this or that.

How do you enjoy something that the scientific data says will fail?

You can't predict the future..so shut up!

I think this is the hysteria that you were talking about, Reef Junkie.

For those out there deciding on what to do...do what you want...the worst thing that could happen is that you are forced to get more involved in your hobby to get your aquarium looking and functioning the way you want it.



BTW sesegal99, I'm just curious, are you by chance taking Dr Ron's DSB class?
Steve

[DJ88©]

Steve,

I just warned sesegal. Please don't add fuel to the flames..

cheap shots don't help matters..

[chimp]

[tsiler]

(picking jaw up from floor)
(stepping into flame suit)

I just removed my DSB in the 180g tank in my living room. I am replacing it with about 2 inches of finer sand than I had before. My water quality was getting out of control. I couldn't control pH anymore, couldn't get my ORP over 200 no matter how hard I skimmed, tried every trick in the book to get it back... no joy.

Removing this DSB has been an unbelievable task that has gone on for almost 3 months now, including planning, and will probably go another month. Already my corals look better than before. Already my water parameters are jumping back to "normal." This task is not for the faint at heart. It's messy, smelly, physically exhausting, and mentally draining.

I chose to remove the DSB because I probably didn't go about installing it right in the first place. I read ALOT of Dr. Ron's posts when I decided to put it in initially, but not enough of them. It was fine for over 4 years and it was probably undermaintained for much of that period. I admit that. I'm human... lazy sometimes... ambitious others. I'm trying to get my system to be as natural as possible without having to spend two hours a night on it.

I hate the look of barebottom... I used to have a plenum in my smaller tank... I have run skimmerless in the past. Now I have tried enough different ways to keep my reef inhabitants happy that I think I know what I want.

We come here for opinions. If it were all based in rock-solid fact, RC would be a how-to, not a discussion board. My opinion (if you care) is that barebottom is great for people who don't vacuum their carpet unless someone is coming over. DSBs are great for people who study sand, and have time to properly maintain it. I fall somewhere in the middle.

Getting to the point... chill out and learn. We're all right, and we're all wrong. Learn to deal with that and you've made big progress.

Again, $.02 for free!

Tom Siler
Columbus, OH

[banzai75x]

I wasn't thinking of going with a DSB only because my tank is small and I don't want to give up valuable real estate. I also wanted to keep a starfish too because my fiance thinks they are cool. I also like the look of alot of sand though. Do you think having a 2" sand bed is about the right height to have? Mark-You said 3/4" should be sufficient.

Thanks!

Also, could I keep a starfish with about 2" of sand?

[MiddletonMark]

Uh oh ... you're talking like I really `know' something. Let's first be all aware that I don't.

I have a couple of tanks, took over from my fiance in running the tanks about a year ago. Lots of reading and research - good luck on the tanks I'm running ... but I don't ever want to be an `expert' as that means I have to quit learning.

As for sand ... what I have generally heard is that you want either less than 1", or more than 3" [deep sand bed]. In between - I'm not sure what the benefits are, but you may not be able to agitate it like you can with a shallow bed. [not sure if this is good, but nice to know I can just siphon it out with few problems].

What kind of starfish are you looking at? Are you sure they need more than a minimal covering of substrate? Mine seem to hide inside my rock or in the crevices of the rockwork ... [I have serpent stars]. They also hide almost all the time ... so while useful as scavengers and detrivores IMO [and could always turn to fish-eaters] ... but not visible very often.

Anyway - I'd do some searches on SSB or shallow sandbed and see what you find. I'm not really that convinced it's the greatest of all systems ... but works better in the short term than I'd think barebottom would in this tank due to lower flow. Also higher nutrient levels seem to be conducive towards the coral varieties I have in there right now.

As a second tank, it's an interesting trial. Only 5 months old now ... doing great, but 5 months sure isn't longevity in the least. Growing my frags and softie mother colonies pretty well [started with `old' rock so it got going quickly]. Also very light fish load ... 40g tank with midas blenny and two clown gobies.

Anyway - before this turns into a shallow sandbed thread [start one or search, feel free to PM me the link or post it here] ... I'll stop.

In my meager understanding - EVERY system has benefits and negatives. While there is no `right way' to do things - it seems like there might be `wrong ways'. Some people can get away with a weird system for a while, even a long time - but I think most people here try to advise based on what works for the majority other than the lucky few.

Depending on the exact corals you want to keep, the skimmer/flow/feeding/fish load you have and want to keep - there are likely a couple methods of setting up a long-term viable tank. I bet if you link a thread you start for your tank - a lot of people right here would help you achieve what you want [if they can help].

Ramble ramble ramble ... time to get back on-topic

[SPC]

Originally posted by DJ88
Steve,

I just warned sesegal. Please don't add fuel to the flames..

cheap shots don't help matters..

Sorry Darren, I try never to get personal, but I agree with you that some of my post crossed the line.

My opinion (if you care) is that barebottom is great for people who don't vacuum their carpet unless someone is coming over.

I don't think I follow you here, tsiler, why would this be the case with a BB?

DSBs are great for people who study sand, and have time to properly maintain it.

Well I'm not sure I would agree with this completely, studying sand sure does help, but how would this keep the sand from acting just like it does in low flow, high organic areas in nature?
Steve

[Frick-n-Frags]

Yeah, that Bomber. He got so hysterical he even threw his cutting board into his tank after he was done exorcising his DSB.

What a crazy, hysterical guy he is


It's pretty hysterical how nice Bomber's Acros look too.


I actually have one serious question: How do you generate monster flow in a tank with a DSB???. My SPS tank has 2 RIO2500 sized PH's in a 50 long that blow cement frag plugs around. Any substrate would be constantly in suspension. There is no other way to skin the hi-flo cat.

And the other side of the coin IMO, DSB's look like crap when they turn black and God help you if you disrupt that foul anaerobic zone so...........

I like that saying "We are all right and we are all wrong"

[tsiler]

Okay... it was a misguided attempt at humor. My bad.

I hate it when I have to explain a joke! :P

Anybody wanna bash skilters? (subject change)

Tom Siler
Columbus, OH

[Reef Junkie]

Originally posted by Bomber
Taking a tank apart and putting it back together to remove a sand bed is no easy task. It takes a lot of planning and thinking - and it's certainly not something that someone would do in a moment of hysteria.

Bomber,
Been there. I had a 180 gallon reef with a 2" sandbed. The DSB was in the 300 gallon sump. When I took that setup apart the smell was unbearable!
I'm playing catchup. I used to be a regular on this website, but life called and I had to answer. So, forgive me if I seem out of touch.
I hope I'll get to stay on these boards, but a wife and boy/girl twins require a lot of attention!
Thanks again for your input.
Bill

[Frick-n-Frags]

Tom

seriously, I like that saying.

[Reef Junkie]

Holy @#$%! I hit reply (it took me forever to reply because I'm at work) and I return to all this poo!
I'm not for or against DSB, I just want to know why they are the new bane of the aquarium hobby?
I used one in my old tank in a seperate area from the tank, so I didn't even have one in the display tank. My current tank is barebottom, bb.
bill

[Ron]

Anyone else remember this quote?

"The only thing that two reef keepers will agree on is that the third is obviously doing something wrong."

Ron

[kathrynd]

I thought the benefit of a DSB was reduction of nitrates.

I have a DSB (about a year). I'm one of those losers who only tests their water quality when something goes wrong. I just recently tested my nitrates (out of curiosity, nothing went wrong) and they were through the roof (50 ppm)! Yet everything lives, and looks good. I do heavy water changes too (15% weekly).

What gives? Could my DSB be contributing to my high nitrates? By the way, I checked my source water (top-off and replacement saltwater); both sources test with 0ppm nitrates.

Thoughts?
Kat