Anyone experienced w/mass culture of adult Artemia?

fish farmer · #1 05/15/2007, 01:05 PM

Hi,

I'm looking to consult w/someone who has experience w/mass culture of adult Artemia. If you have (or someone you know has) experience doing this successfully (preferably for a farm or online distributor), please pm me with your name, contact info. and most recent employment/culture experience.

I can offer monetary compensation for your time!!!

Thanks!

Travis L. Stevens · #2 05/15/2007, 01:55 PM

How big are you talking about for "Mass" culture?

billsreef · #3 05/15/2007, 10:09 PM

Pick up a copy of Frank Hoff's "Plankton Culture Manual", lots of good info in there on all sorts of stuff including large scale culture of brine shrimp. They actually aren't too hard to culture, but depending on your definition of "mass" there are some differences in techniques. In general for fish culture, it's cheaper to buy frozen adults at wholesale prices than putting in the resources to grow out huge quantities.

David M · #4 05/16/2007, 12:17 AM

Hey Kristen, I know for a fact I have seen mass culture systems offered by one of the major vendors, just can't remeber if it was BSD or ?? It takes some investment. Check BSD, Florida Aqua Farms and the usual suspects. I specifically rember looking at "all-in-one" package systems that were intended to be used as wholesale live foods businesses. I also remeber I stopped thinking about it when I saw the price tag

billsreef · #5 05/16/2007, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David M
I specifically rember looking at "all-in-one" package systems that were intended to be used as wholesale live foods businesses. I also remeber I stopped thinking about it when I saw the price tag

Aquatic Ecosystems is really good for those high price systems.

I see your a teacher, is this a school related project?

David M · #6 05/16/2007, 08:17 AM

True, but I don't think this was AES. This was a complete system being marketed as a business start up, I'm sure it was one of the brine shrimp companies. If I can find it I'll post the link. BSD or BS.com.

fish farmer · #7 05/16/2007, 11:17 AM

Hey guys,

So here's the "low-down": I'm working as an R&D consultant for an aquafarm in Southern California (I don't really want to go into specifics on an open forum here, but if anyone really wants to know, please pm me). David -you know the one...

(And I used to teach marine biology labs back in my grad. school days... but I'm no longer a teacher. Gotta change my profile...)

They have sunk A LOT of cash into a mass culture system/project for adult Artemia. It is NOT working so far... It IS a LOT different from culturing them in 2-liter bottles or in your backyard, believe it or not.

Because I am not directly involved (read: I'm not the one doing the culturing), I don't know specifics other than what Christine has kindly found out for me. Apparently, the 2 guys responsible for the project have used Hoff's manual as a reference. But they are still not able to get/maintain consistent densities without crashes.

So, they're looking for someone who has experience w/mass culture of these buggers to see if they are "missing something." And I'm "in charge of the search."

I appreciate all the replies so far! Keep 'em comin'!!!

Kristin

Travis L. Stevens · #8 05/16/2007, 11:30 AM

Sounds like you're getting throne under the bus, Kristin.

If you aren't culturing them and don't have the experience of what you do/did to cause/question the crash, there really isn't much help here. Do you know the water parameters that they keep their cultures in? What the water parameters were before the crashing? What are they doing to prevent contaminants? Have they checked for biological concerns (disease, bacteria, etc)?

fish farmer · #9 05/16/2007, 11:40 AM

Travis -

Yeah, I'm basically the "head-hunter" for now. This from Christine:

I "don't know the specific temp they are trying to maintain right now, but the salinity is pretty high, I want to say 50ppt, but better check on it. I think he was trying to keep it in the mid 60s F but don't quote me. They are keeping the salinity high to help with bacteria and it was working pretty well compared to how it was at normal lagoon salinity of 32ppt or so. Have to check with him on pH but photoperiod is natural.
The system is recirc and is refilled with ozone treated seawater, plus it has a UV, a bubble bead filter, and a biofilter filled with cauldness media, a protein skimmer, and heater. The food is kind of up in the air still. They are fed everyday either algae or rice bran plus a little spirulina. He's been feeding various live algae like Pavlova, Tetraselmis, Nannochloropsis, and Isocrysis mainly. The original plan was to use rice bran and he is still using that everyday or every other day I think too, depending on how the tanks look and the brine are doing."

So -- any suggestions?

Luis A M · #10 05/16/2007, 02:54 PM

High salinity is a good idea.Feeding looks inconsistent.Live algae is like giving caviar.Bran is like cheap left-overs.Perhaps something in between like a yeast/spirulina blend?.
Otherwise it seems pretty well done (big spenders)

fish farmer · #11 05/16/2007, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Luis A M
High salinity is a good idea.Feeding looks inconsistent.Live algae is like giving caviar.Bran is like cheap left-overs.Perhaps something in between like a yeast/spirulina blend?.
Otherwise it seems pretty well done (big spenders)

I agree that feeding seems inconsistent. They have already got the microalgae cultures running for other projects, so they are using incidental samples from those as feed.

And their "big-spending" without adequate trial runs first is something that has come back to bite them in the arse.

billsreef · #12 05/16/2007, 06:42 PM

A couple of things jump out at me, one is the inconsistency in feeding that Louis noted. On the whole, I find live feeds such as phyto are least likely to cause crashes, while dead feeds like bran and yeast are a good deal more problematic with bacterial problems. The other thing that jumps out at me is all that filtration on a system for rearing filter feeders, I wouldn't be surprised if those filters are stripping food out too fast and then degrading water quality if they aren't cleaning and back flushing once or twice a day.

billsreef · #13 05/16/2007, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fish farmer
And their "big-spending" without adequate trial runs first is something that has come back to bite them in the arse.

That's pretty scary, that sort of thing is known for driving a business under.

fish farmer · #14 05/16/2007, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by billsreef
That's pretty scary, that sort of thing is known for driving a business under.

Yeah, I agree. Hence the scramble to try to "fix" it. I'm not convinced it's a profitable project to begin with. But perhaps if they start completely over with TRIAL RUNS FIRST, they could see some success.

*shrug* Such is the nature of well, nature, I guess. And trying to "recreate" it in rectangular boxes of water.

David M · #15 05/16/2007, 10:27 PM

"the 2 guys responsible for the project have used Hoff's manual as a reference."

Kristin, why not just go straight to the BIG DOG for consultation ? I don't know from personal experience but I am told that that is exactly what Frank does. He certainly meets your ctiteria for "If you have (or someone you know has) experience doing this successfully (preferably for a farm or online distributor), "

fish farmer · #16 05/17/2007, 12:56 PM

That's an excellent idea Dave! I think we'll all have a meeting within the next few days, just so we're all on the same page. And then maybe I can contact Hoff.

Thanks!

Oh, and Christine says they backflush the filters at least once, if not more, per day...

Luis A M · #17 05/17/2007, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by billsreef
A couple of things jump out at me, one is the inconsistency in feeding that Louis noted. On the whole, I find live feeds such as phyto are least likely to cause crashes, while dead feeds like bran and yeast are a good deal more problematic with bacterial problems. The other thing that jumps out at me is all that filtration on a system for rearing filter feeders, I wouldn't be surprised if those filters are stripping food out too fast and then degrading water quality if they aren't cleaning and back flushing once or twice a day.

Good point.Artemia thrive in dirty ponds,with just some aeration.
THEY are the filter!

billsreef · #18 05/17/2007, 03:01 PM

My best cultures have been nothing more than a tub of water with an airstone

fish farmer · #19 05/17/2007, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by billsreef
My best cultures have been nothing more than a tub of water with an airstone

I know! Isn't that always the way!!

We talk all the time about buckets that were dumped and tossed aside *forgotten* only to come back and find several brine swimming around quite happily in a couple inches of water...

billsreef · #20 05/17/2007, 08:09 PM

There's a lesson in there on shrimp culture

Usually it's just a matter of changing the scale, not so much adding all sorts of extraneous equipment just because it's big

I don't really find much difference between running a regular fish tank and large aquaculture system, just bigger pumps, bigger filters, bigger tubs (tanks), bigger plumbing fittings, etc. For instance, instead of small hobby air pumps, large blowers instead and PVC pipe for distribution. Haywood Super Pumps instead of Iwaki's and so on. Based on my experience with aquaculturing other species, I'd bet you'll find the same thing holds true with the brine shrimp. I'd suggest trying air lifts for circulation and only filtering a small percentage of the systems water, just enough to keep the ammonia levels below the shrimps tolerance. Feed mostly live phyto, and only a small amount of the dead foods and I'll bet you come up with a winning system

GreshamH · #21 05/18/2007, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by billsreef
There's a lesson in there on shrimp culture Usually it's just a matter of changing the scale, not so much adding all sorts of extraneous equipment just because it's big I don't really find much difference between running a regular fish tank and large aquaculture system, just bigger pumps, bigger filters, bigger tubs (tanks), bigger plumbing fittings, etc. For instance, instead of small hobby air pumps, large blowers instead and PVC pipe for distribution. Haywood Super Pumps instead of Iwaki's and so on. Based on my experience with aquaculturing other species, I'd bet you'll find the same thing holds true with the brine shrimp. I'd suggest trying air lifts for circulation and only filtering a small percentage of the systems water, just enough to keep the ammonia levels below the shrimps tolerance. Feed mostly live phyto, and only a small amount of the dead foods and I'll bet you come up with a winning system

I fully agree.

One huge problem with mass artemia is moltings. I find artemia like higher DO then many give them, at least on a mass scale.

fish farmer · #22 05/18/2007, 01:20 PM

Does anyone have Frank's personal contact info. (I've already emailed through the FL Aquafarms website, but it went to a sales addy)?

If so, could you pm me?

Thanks!

fish farmer · #23 05/31/2007, 09:44 PM

Just wanted to update -- I called and talked to Frank Hoff last week. He was very nice and very helpful -- particularly since he was getting ready to leave that day for a 2 wk. vacation.

So -- a big thank you to all who replied. Many of you gave us some great advice which hopefully will help in getting the brine back on track.