Sump, Return and closed loop help!

[TriniStylez]

I know its a lot but I really need help. I have a 65G already up and running but think its maybe time to upgrade my system finally!

Right now I have a very basic set up.

192 Watt PC
HOB skimmer (Aqua C Remora)
HOB fuge with chaeto
60lbs Caribsea aragonite sand
100lbs. Indonesian LR
Three maxijet 1200 powerheads
Canister filter with no sponges, bio balls, ect., just run Purigen and carbon

As you can see, a very basic set up!

Livestock is just a Velentini Puffer (who does not eat the corals at all) and a blue/green Chromis

Soft corals such as, Colt, Finger leathers and some polyps

LPS, Frogspawn (think thats LPS?)

Pagodia Cup...no idea what kind it is, sorry

Inverts, 20 or so, Scarlet Hermits, Sand Sifting Star, Red star (not sure what kind), do stars mix well together? They have been fine so far (6 months)

Anyways, I want to add a 20G tall sump to my system but my tank is not drilled . I do not want to drill I don't think because I do not want to disturb my tank too much. So, i have been looking at the CPR overflows. Are they any good? I have to be real careful that I have no overflows on the floor because I rent this apartment!

What would you recommend?

I am also no good with DIY, so what is the easiest way to plumb a simple sump? Do I need to drill the sump? Are there good links to where I can see a step by step set up of a very simple sump? I am talking as simple as possible!

I do understand the basics of a sump and the plumbing but I just see so many different variations!!!

Next question is about the return. How do I make sure it matches up with the overflow properly? Is it suppose to be the exact same? I have heard about needing to drill a hole somewhere in the return to help prevent flooding??? I wanted to use a "y" in the return to have the water go back into the display in two spots. Is this worth it?

Lastly, closed loop...Basically, are they hard to make? I am tired of seeing all the powerheads in my tank! What would be the simplest way to go about a closed loop for a small 65G like mine?

I am so sorry for all the simple questions I have but I have been doing so much research and seem to be getting nowhere fast!

I really want to upgrade and add more fish but until I feel my system is more complete, I don't want to add more bio-load!

Thanks!

[jmait769]

TriniStylez - Melev’s site has some great information on Sumps and Overflows and should answer most of your questions.

I would recommend a LifeReef overflow. They are a little more expensive but flow what is advertised. You will get a lot of opinions on this but IMO this is the best.



Basically you want to match your overflow to your pump. If the overflow can flow 500GPH then try and get a pump with this capacity. Here again there is a lot opinions on this. Some want a lot of flow thru the sump and some don't. I have my skimmer in the sump and want it to have as much "dwell" time so I keep mine at about 500 GPH. Don’t forget that you will have to take into account the flow restriction the plumbing has on the pump. RC has a great calculator for this: http://www.reefcentral.com/calc/hlc2.php


You can place the pump in the sump and no drilling is required with this approach.

Look at this Closed Loop from Melev's site also.

You can click my red house for some pictures of my sump on about page 3 and 4.

HTH

Jay

[TriniStylez]

Thanks, I know I asked a lot of questions but I really am lost! That helps though.

[pvtschultz]

You can also make the PVC overflow like the one that has just resurfaced in this forum. Food for Thought.

There is/has been a lot of debate on the amount of flow going into the sump, some like it high, some like it low. Personally, if you are using a syphon overflow, you don't need a lot of volume since it skims the surface of the water to remove the sludge build up (YMMV) and then I would just run the plumbing down into the sump-into a third tank inside the sump.

So, what I would do:
1. Run a syphon overflow from your display tank down to the sump.
2. Hang a filter sock on the overflow discharge to limit bubbles/splashing as well as provide some mechanical filtration.
3. In the sump, I would place a third small tank (say 2.5-5 gallons) with the water from the filter sock entering directly into that your skimmer pump sits in. This will allow more efficient skimming (another old time thread).
4. The skimmer out-flow as well as the excess water will then overflow the small tank into the main sump where the return pump sits. I would size the return pump to flow slightly more than what the skimmer flows while operating (this might take a bit of trial and error since skimmer pumps often flow much less than rated capacity). To throttle the return pump, place a ball valve inline with the return so you can control how much water is flowing over the overflow.

The key to successful overflow operation is to size it so that any air bubbles that go into the U-tube are swept away by the water current and not left to collect at the top which will cause failure. Also, placing a check-valve at the top of the U-tube will allow you to suck out air bubbles that do collect (as well as start the syphon) or you could use an aqua-lifter pump to mechanically pump out the air bubbles.

Are you confused now? Tried to keep it straight forwards but after being in the hobby for a while what appears simple to me might be mind boggling to you.

[TriniStylez]

I am a bit confused but I really like your ideas! I am really new to this and get confused easily! So, is it hard to make the PVC overflow? I don't have a whole lot of money for this and need to find the most efficient way to work this out. I would like to make sure I put a good chunk of what I wanna spend into a good return pump.

I guess my other question then is, will a ball valve help me match up the return pump better with my overflow?

Thanks for your help!

[TriniStylez]

Are the Continuous Siphon Overflow Boxes any good?

[TriniStylez]

What about this one?

http://cgi.ebay.ca/Aquarium-Overflow...QQcmdZViewItem

[pvtschultz]

I like that it has the pump to suck out bubbles, but it is way over-sized for a 65 gal tank. IMO you really only need something on the order of 125-250 gph, just enough to skim the surface. Having one rated for say 500 gph will allow you to throttle back the return pump for slower flow, but when the weather gets cold (if you are in a climatically challanged region) to turn up the flow to bring the warmed sump water to the main tank as needed.

ETA: Try this thread for a DIY PVC overflow.

[TriniStylez]

pvtschultz and jmait769-Thanks for your help! Im so glad that you have the patients to help me out!

I kind of like the one I saw in the link but I do understand the GPH may be a bit much.

I will keep looking!

[TriniStylez]

Oh, I think I may stay away from that PVC one though.

[TriniStylez]

Actually another question is, if I went with one of the CPR overflows, is it simple enough to use a powerhead to keep the bubbles from building up and breaking the siphon?

[jmait769]

TriniStylez – No problem glad to help. Basically the one in the picture will flow 700 GPH. That mean it can theoretically dump 700 GPH down to the sump. If you use a pump and plumbing that can only move 500 GPH then that is all the Lifereef or similar product would move. If you tried to put a pump and plumbing that would flow 1000 GPH you could have a flood as the overflow could not keep up and you would drain the sump. Some people put a ball valve in the plumbing on the output side of the pump to “throttle” it back and allow them to use a higher rated pump. Some also T the line and dump some of the return either back into the sump or into a refugium. I don’t like to throttle the pump so I just used a pump that was under the overflow capacity.

IMO (and some do not have this same opinion) the CPR is risky due to the fact you are relying on a mechanical device to extract the bubbles and maintain a siphon. Many will swear by them and I have never owned one so bear that in mind.

The Lifereef type products maintain the siphon in the U-tube. If I turn off my pump the siphon does not stop. Flow thru the U-tube is what prevents bubbles from forming as they are whisked thru the tube. If my flow was very slow there is a chance the U-tube could loose it siphon if bubbles were to form in the tube but I have had mine running for about 9 – 10 months and it has never lost a siphon.

I hope I explained this well! You should still research the products and find the one that you feel comfortable with.

HTH

Jay

[TriniStylez]

Thanks. You explained that very well. I understand a bit more now. I think I would rather go with a pump that is under the overflow capacity. Seems much safer in my situation!

I like the Liferref products, just waiting to hear back from them on shipping. I am not sure if they will ship here to me.

They look great too. So do they accumulate bubbles at all? Sounds like they do not. If they did, is it easy to see the bubbles forming?
Sorry, I am just worried because I have a rented apartment!

If they ship here though, I think I will go that way!

[TriniStylez]

Wow they responded quick! They will ship to me, quite expensive shipping but I think well worth it. Are there any other overflows that are designed like that one from Lifereef? Im just wondering about the cost now with shipping and everything...

[Iconz]

Originally posted by TriniStylez
What about this one?

http://cgi.ebay.ca/Aquarium-Overflow...QQcmdZViewItem

I bought the 600gph model of this overflow box for my 20high + 20 high sump setup, and it works great. My return pump pushes about 300gph and I have no problems maintaining siphon on the overflow box.

On the CLM... you can do it cheap, or you can do it expensive... however you want.

Since your tank is already setup, I'd do it similar to the one mentioned above on Melev's Site...

Here's mine that I just did LAST NIGHT with a Quiet One 3000, 1" pipe, and 6 3/4" outlets... It gives me about 650gph total.

You can also see another 600 GPH overflow on the right. Identical to the other one I'm using.

Ignore the pipe coming out of the top of the T in the first pic.. I was just testing to see if I would need to set up an external Dorso or not... I don't.

[pvtschultz]

Like he said, I feel the U-tube to be superior to the CPR method which is far more prone to bubbles IMO. I have used one syphon overflow in the past and it worked great for me w/o any failures. I now have a RR tank to make life easier, but it worked well in the past.

[jmait769]

I went with one like this Overflow with two drains but I wish I had gone with the LifeReef and will upgrade to it (I’m waiting on permission from the better half )

Here is a picture of mine. I added a few extra U-tubes as you can see.



The bubbles can form but it is usually a slow process. Mine produced some bubbles at first until the box that is in the tank “slimmed” over. Now no bubbles.

Jay

[TriniStylez]

OK, these are all good ideas! Im not sure which way I should go. I am going to keep researching though because I need this to be as safe from flooding as possible. Sorry, I keep saying that.

The other thing Im now wondering is, if Im using a 40G tall as my sump, how much extra water will that actually add to the system? How much do you actually fill the sump? Sorry if this is a silly question.

[Iconz]

well, you want to fill the sump up to the point where, if your display back-siphons on ya, it won't flood the sump. I'd estimate 3/4 full would be a good number... That'd give you 10g of run-off from a 65g... That should be sufficient.

[TriniStylez]

OK, is there anything you can do if the siphon breaks and the return pump continues pumping water into the display. I guess break out the mop!

[Bergovoy]

uh yea, the mop , the towels, the sheets, your laundry...

That is the typical scenario we all hate to think about.

A very good reason to go with itnernal overflows, but again, similar scenarios exhist that make us sweat.
But use the volume calculator on the home page for RC, and leave yourself some safety room. Calc out the stuff that is in your sump also

Good luck

Bill

[TriniStylez]

So should the water in my display maybe be a bit lower than usual?

[pvtschultz]

No, the overflow will set the water level. Keep the level to a height that is pleasing to the eye (above to trim to me). With any overflow/sump system, you should set a sump level and then unplug everything and see how much water returns to the sump when the power goes out, that is the most preventable flood situation. Then mark a line on the sump tank with everything running so you know how much water has evaporated if you don't have an auto top-off system.

The best way to prevent siphon failure is to keep the flow rate through the U-tube high enough to prevent bubble accumulations. Like was mentioned above, adding several other U-tubes will give you a safety factor so if you are gone for a few days and one fails, the others will keep you going. Extras can be had online for under US$10. Then, just check them daily, or when you feed, to see if there are bubbles at the top. An easy DIY mod is to drill a small hole in the top of each U-tube and superglue in a check valve. This way when you see bubbles, or need to start the siphon, just suck on the check valve (adding airline helps) to remove the air and you are back in business.

[jmait769]

OK, is there anything you can do if the siphon breaks and the return pump continues pumping water into the display. I guess break out the mop!

Yes there is! In my picture you can see an orange object on the left side of the overflow box. That is a float switch inside a small acrylic box. If the tank level was to rise above the overflow box it would flood this small cavity, raise the float switch and turn off my pump. I would have to physically siphon the water out of this small box to restart the pump after I fixed the problem. The reason for this is if the float switch was just hanging in the overflow box and the water level increased the pump would turn off. When the water level returned to the proper level the pump would start up again. If I wasn’t home to fix the problem the pump would cycle on and of eventually breaking or burning up the pump. I got the idea from this thread: Float Switch turning OFF Return Pump? This is for peace of mind and so far I have never had to fix anything. Down side to this, that I can think of, is that the float switch might fail to turn off the pump so I test mine each time I turn off the pump.

Here is a quote from BeanAnimal from that thread:

1) siphon breaks
2) tank water level rises
3) float switch rises and breaks contact
4) because the pump is off the water siphons back through pump into sump
5) float switch in display drops and restarts pump
6) overflow siphon is still broken so water level rises in tank again
7) float switch cuts power to pump...
8) the whole process repeats until you stop it, the pump burns up, or enough water evaporates to break the cycle.

quangtam7 came up with this great idea. I just made mine part of the overflow box.



This is Don's picture to give you an idea of what the float switch looks like.



HTH

Jay

[TriniStylez]

Wow, the great advice keeps coming! Thanks again everyone and Im so glad I found this place!

I do not know a lot of fellow local reefers to ask for help, so you guys have neem great!