Nitrate Options

starmanres · #1 01/13/2007, 02:25 PM

Just a little background to get this started, I first began in the hobby almost 30 years ago when all we had was dead coral, no skimmers or sumps and small florescent lights over the top of the tank... So I am not a noob to the impact Marine tanks have on your life or wallet.

I am searching for a better way to deal with Nitrates than the standard "... just do water changes till it reaches zero..." approach. I do my water changes on my 120 gallon once a week like I'm told but the Nitrates still hover between 20ppm and 40ppm. This particular tank has been up for almost three years and I put a new 40 lb bag of Live Sand on top of my DSB annually. I have had little success with Hard Corals even with 6-7 watts per gallon lighting but my Softies do extremely well.

In doing some searching, I have come across a couple of articles on the Right Now Bacteria. It seems to be really marketed at cycling a tank but I am more interested in its ability to turn Nitrates into Nitrogen Gas with one treatment and no other additions. While I do not expect it to eliminate water changes by any means, wouldn't this extend the frequency of changes and improve the environment drastically?

Has anyone used this product or heard the benefits/pitfalls from it? In doing a RC Search, nothing really came up on it.

Here is a link on the article that piqued my interest:

Thanks in advance for your responses.

Robert

mwwhite · #2 01/13/2007, 03:57 PM

Can't help but have you posted this in the Reef Chemistry forum? I'll bet the Doc or someone over there can help you out. They are guru's at reef chemistry.

HTH

Peter Eichler · #3 01/13/2007, 04:03 PM

Exactly how deep is your deep sandbed, what type of skimmer are you using, and what % water change do you do?

starmanres · #4 01/13/2007, 04:12 PM

My sandbed is 6" and I am using the ASM G2 skimmer. I have a 120 gallon and am doing a 15 gallon change per week.

I have tried to do 25 gallon water changes but it seems to mess with my other numbers and I've found chasing numbers will get you in deep dutch.

I really don't have a problem doing the water changes. I just want to keep the Nitrates down to a lower level and I don't seem to be able to get them down below 10ppm.

Paul B · #5 01/13/2007, 04:22 PM

Robert, I also have never heard of it but it does sound interesting (if not plausable) I truely hope it will work but I would imagine that if it did we would have heard more of it. The article says it works aerobically. That means he must have found a totally new type of bacteria than we are familiar with as the aerobic bacteria commonly refered to in our hobby will do nothing to reduce nitrates and in fact manufacture them.
As for my nitrate reduction I employ an algae trough that sits above my water and slightly under the main lights. My nitrates stay under 10 and that is because I have a large moorish Idol that I have to feed three times a day. I am currently designing a nitrate reducing system that will use about 100' of PVC tubing and Nitrox which sounds a lot like the carbon in your article. It is a medium which supports the growth of anerobic bacteria. and I hope it works silently for free and basically forever. That is the goal anyway.
Good luck.
Paul

starmanres · #6 01/13/2007, 04:31 PM

Paul,

This sounds very interesting. In looking through your galley, the trough works like an "in tank" refugium but for bacteria production instead of copepod production and PO4 reduction?

Do you have a thread on how you built your trough or the new option you are considering?

Thanks for the response!

Robert

Peter Eichler · #7 01/13/2007, 04:33 PM

http://www.hdltd.com/technical/t_24hour.html

After reading through some of this a few things stand out...

"Because of the rapidity of conversion of toxic ammonia and ammonium to ammonium ion, the test kit will register ammonium but the tank or pond will not have dead fish."

Sounds like it isn't a whole lot different from a lot of products on the market that makes the same claims about cycling tanks. What happened to the miracle 24 hour cycle?

"Within a two week period, at 250C, for every pound of Tri Base Pelletized Carbon, one pound of Right Now! Bacteria will be established in the aquatic environment. This is more than adequate for any system for the reduction of Nitrogenous waste and the aerobic reduction of Nitrates to nitrogen gas."

Thay talk a lot about products being used in conjuntion with one another, which also worries me. Seems like this tribase carbon is nothing more than a carbon source to aid the bacteria in their RN product. You might as well dose a little vodka or sugar in your tank, seems like it'll do the same thing in terms of nitrates.

Overall many of their products just seem like a rehash of products that were on the market years ago. Yet, they're being pumped up as the new miracle breakthrough products. Tread with caution I say.

Peter Eichler · #8 01/13/2007, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by starmanres
My sandbed is 6" and I am using the ASM G2 skimmer. I have a 120 gallon and am doing a 15 gallon change per week.

I have tried to do 25 gallon water changes but it seems to mess with my other numbers and I've found chasing numbers will get you in deep dutch.

I really don't have a problem doing the water changes. I just want to keep the Nitrates down to a lower level and I don't seem to be able to get them down below 10ppm.

I'll just assume you're using an RODI unit for your water source.

Seems like with an efficient skimmer and a 6" sandbed you shouldn't be having the problems you are. Do you feed heavily and/or have a large fishload? Have you tried growing some chaeto in your sump to see if that makes any impact on your nitrates?

Doing larger percentage waterchanges would help as well. As long as you adjust the KH, calcium, and magnesium of your salt mix it doesn't seem like you'd have to "chase numbers". I know many people support smaller more frequent waterchanges, but as long as the basic things like temperature and salinity are adjusted I've always felt that the inhabitants of my tank barely even notice when a 20-25% waterchange is performed.

It just seems to me like you need to find a longterm solution rather than hope some miracle product will help you.

Paul B · #9 01/13/2007, 05:04 PM

Robert the trough works by growing algae and since the trough has a screen in it I can remove it for cleaning and removal of algae. The algae growth helps remove nitrate. There are descriptions of it in another thread. I will have to find it for you.
As for my new idea It is in the planning stages and should be completed in a few weeks. I will publish it when it is completed.
Paul

yeldarbj · #10 01/13/2007, 05:20 PM

I've had success with Seachem's Purigen product. I was doing weekly 20% water changes that would keep my nitrates between 15-20. Less than a week after using 100ml of Purigen and 250ml of SeaGel, my nitrates have gone from 20 to less than 5 with no other changes to the tank.

I know most people would prefer a biological solution to a chemical media solution, but it seems to work for me.

Paul B · #11 01/13/2007, 05:24 PM

I found the thread on the algae thread if you are interested. There is information about it on page 17
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...&pagenumber=17

starmanres · #12 01/13/2007, 05:30 PM

Peter,

I do use an autofill RODI system and the filters have been changed in the last 3 months. Disolved Solids are at 0.

I have a yellow tang, hippo tang, dotty back, three clowns, bi-color blenny and a coral beauty. As for other creatures, I have large leather, some zoes, a small anemone, a good crop of star polyps, two bubbles, two small ricordia, some xenias, a galaxia and a good sized hammer plus a large brittle star. Everything has been in the tank for over a year with no losses.

I feed every other day about 3 small cubes of frozen food (1 brine shrimp, 1 cyclopeez, 1 blood worms) thawed, and it's gone in less than 5 minutes. I hand feed my bubble and anemone at the same time with mysis shrimp and a half of a silverside.

I'm using Tropic Marin salt exclusively. When I do a larger water change, my PH seems to take a dive. I moved to smaller changes and my PH stays more stable.

To keep my sand cleaner, I use a siphon to pull from the top 1 1/2" of DSB to keep from getting into the low O2 water deeper.

I appreciate your feedback on the article. It sounds like the miracle option that we all tend to doubt before it's proven. But so were skimmers and sumps early on.

Paul:

I will be looking forward to your links!

Thanks,

Robert

Paul B · #13 01/13/2007, 05:51 PM

Peter I know you have been at this a long time but IMO that is too much food. I have more fish than that plus a 7" moorish Idol which I target feed and I don't feed as much as that. I use one of those cubes a day and usually not even the entire cube. My fish all die of old age, one of them reached 18 until I killed it by accident. Of course I don't know how large your fish are but the feeding is causing your nitrates. It is the only factor in this endeaver that can cause nitrates. There may be a miracle pill in the future but for us mortals we have to add less food to achieve less nitrates through nitrification achieved by anerobic bacteria.
It is the only way for now.
Have a great day.
Paul
I would not use the brine shrimp or the blood worms at all. "Bloodworms" sold as fish food are not even worms at all. They are insect larvae and are of questionable value as saltwater fish food. Also IMO mysis are a much better choice than brine shrimp and are the same price. You could also feed less if you used foods with more nutritional value as I stated.
Just my opinion

Myka · #14 01/13/2007, 05:54 PM

You're gravel vacuuming the top 1.5" of your DSB? From my understanding you're not supposed to touch your DSB like that, and you should have a cleanup crew and other animals that stir your DSB for you...?

Peter Eichler · #15 01/13/2007, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Paul B
Peter I know you have been at this a long time but IMO that is too much food. I have more fish than that plus a 7" moorish Idol which I target feed and I don't feed as much as that. I use one of those cubes a day and usually not even the entire cube. My fish all die of old age, one of them reached 18 until I killed it by accident. Of course I don't know how large your fish are but the feeding is causing your nitrates. It is the only factor in this endeaver that can cause nitrates. There may be a miracle pill in the future but for us mortals we have to add less food to achieve less nitrates through nitrification achieved by anerobic bacteria.
It is the only way for now.
Have a great day.
Paul
I would not use the brine shrimp or the blood worms at all. "Bloodworms" sold as fish food are not even worms at all. They are insect larvae and are of questionable value as saltwater fish food. Also IMO mysis are a much better choice than brine shrimp and are the same price. You could also feed less if you used foods with more nutritional value as I stated.
Just my opinion

He's Robert, I'm Peter

And yeah, I agree, I'd go with smaller more frequent feedings and skip the bloodworms.

Also, like Myka pointed out, you're probably doing more harm than good by vacuuming your sandbed. That's the tricky part of deep sandbeds, if you don't clean it they can get built up with detritus, if you do clean it you're disturbing the biological process. That's why lots of flow, judicious feeding, and the right critters are very important with SBs.

starmanres · #16 01/13/2007, 06:54 PM

Thanks guys!

Ok... Feed less... One half Cube per day (mysis or cyclopeez) and drop the Blood Worms and Brine Shrimp.

Do you suggest using phytoplankton? I was for about 6 months, but didn't see any benefits.

No more vacuuming the sandbed. What creatures do you suggest in keeping the sand bright? I had a sandsifting star for awhile in conjunction with some fighting conchs but the starfish would eat them and my snail population so I gave him to my LFS. I would assume my problems with keeping my snails and shrimp is caused my my nitrate levels.

Again, I appreciate the suggestions.

Robert

Peter Eichler · #17 01/13/2007, 07:19 PM

I wouldn't necessarily suggest buying creatures for the sandbed. I was mainly speaking of things like small worms and pods that would normally occur in live sand. If you have live rock in your tank and or pariatally seeded your sandbed with live sand you should have these organisms. Cutting down on the amount you feed should also keep the sandbed from getting too full of detritus.

In addition to the feeding regiment you pointed out maybe a little nori or a spirulina based food for the tangs and angel.

fishykid9212 · #18 01/13/2007, 07:21 PM

I highly recommend this method, it works great and you won't have any negative effects if you dose it right. Just as a warning many people are going to steam when I post this, but if you are interested in giving it a try let me know.
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...72#post8973972

Paul B · #19 01/14/2007, 07:14 AM

Quote:

He's Robert, I'm Peter

Robert... Peter... I don't know. I must be getting senile

I would not feed phytoplankton either. For the fish you have just feed the mysis and maybe Angel formula. I would also add some frozen clam or oyster. I would also target feed everything. I would never just put food in my tank unless I am putting it in front of a fish.
I am not a big fan of DSBs so I will let these knowlegable guys explain that.
Paul