Switched from a reactor to 2-part dosing-Interesting results

[Big E]

About a 3 weeks ago I decided to take my reactor offline & dose Randy's 2-part solutions. Two main reasons---

1. I was tired of tweaking my dripper valve........it seemed to clog over time or slow down. There was also many general tweaks/ adjustments over the months of use.

2. I wanted to see the effects of the reduction of phosphate being added from the ARM media. The reactor added .06 at 30ml of effluent solution every minute of operation. So if you expand that out over a day you'll see I was adding a huge amount of phosphate to my system each day.

My system has run at .02 phosphate consistently for years. All measurents are with a Hanna photometer. It had no excessive algae problems as currently set up.

The system---

Total volume-200g

Bioload-
One 8" purple tang
Two tuxedo urchins
40-corals

Live rock-80 lbs
BB setup

Skimmer- Deltec Ap702

Water change 10% weekly

No other export mechanisms used.......no carbon, phosban,macro,remote sand ect.

Parameters-
Calcium-400
Alk-8.6
N-0 (salifert)
P-.02 (photometer)
Ph-8.1
Temp-78-79
Mg-1200
K-350

I'm in the fourth week of 2-part dosing & here are the current results-------

-Phosphate readings are still .02
- A few corals have lightend up slightly, but most have looked the same. My colors have always been good, but this small lightening has brightened the pieces.
- There has been more polyp extension in quite a few of the pieces.
- I clean my front glass once a week vs previously every 2 days
-There is a visible reduction in film algae along with slower macro growth in the display.
- There has been a growth spurt of new tips on more than half the pieces.
- On a handful of pieces the corals polyps are coloring up or lightening to a clear color, which has allowed the corals to look more colorful.

-All measurable parameters are the same except Ph which is more stable. Although I never got more than a .2 swing overnite.

My general conclusions are that the reduction of phoshate in the system has shown very positive results in a short amount of time.
Even though the measurable phosphate level stayed the same I believe that the corals were consuming less phosphate & reducing any phospate inhibition.

The polyp extension is a result of the corals expanding for light & food without the phosphate inhibiting growth.

I believe this has shown quick results due to my low bioload. I'll update this over the months, but so far I'm happy without my reactor.

I'd like to hear your comments/questions.

[nwrogers]

Interesting, I will be checking back for sure. Can you provide any photos?

[kwl1763]

Hey as long as your happy that's all that counts. A good reactor though can be setup in a couple days and left for months. An occasional tweak once a quarter is easier then dosing every day. I also use ARM (for now) but drip the effluent through a bag with phosban. This takes the phosphate out. At first I was worried it might also lower the alk or calcim also since it might bind at such high levels but I have been doing this for six months and the levels before the bag and after are equal on those 2 but the phosphate goes to zero.

pH increase is obviously one thing that should happen and should help slightly. I honestly doubt the PO4 has much to do with the PE but maybe. I've seen tanks insanely high with phosphates with virtually no SPS growth have great PE.

This to me is an interesting statement "Even though the measurable phosphate level stayed the same I believe that the corals were consuming less phosphate & reducing any phospate inhibition."

If there are detectable amounts the corals are saturated (using all they can). They theoretically would only consume less if less was in the water column. Undetectable levels in fact IMO. Thoughts?

[Big E]

I could have used phosban, but its just messy stuff & another cost. Sure a reactor works fine for months but it's a more complicated & costly setup. It has to be monitored to make sure it's working properly
I've used a reactor for 4+ years & have had---
Media turn to mush 2-3 times
An expensive brass check valve go bad & water got in my regulator & ruined it.
Numerous re-sets after power glitches
Inconsistent drip from the effluent valve

I'm using a liter meter to dose, so it much easier & reilable than a reactor. I've eliminated two pumps from my system & also the possibilities of leaks & other failures.

If there are detectable amounts the corals are saturated (using all they can). They theoretically would only consume less if less was in the water column. Undetectable levels in fact IMO. Thoughts?

Well, if the algae is growing slower due to the amount of phosphate that may be more telling than a test on a colormeter.
At only 3 weeks this level may show up as lower over more time.

I believe the bacteria that the coral consumes may not be as phosphate laden as before, which would show positive results.

The system may still balance out at .02 but the input is less overall. The colormeter only measures one type of phosphate........ there are two types Organic & Inorganic

Good overview here-
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/index.php

I'll try to get a few pics up over the next few days. Some of the coloring stuff is pretty subtle right now.

[SPStoner]

Very interesting, Ed. How much did it cost for the litermeter and the ingredients for the 2part? I have been considering the same, although I finally did get my Schuran dialed in after months of tweaking. I even purchased a dual dosing pump, albeit a crappy aquamedic one.

Is there any cons to using the 2 part exclusively that you know of? I know I've read that the commercially available ones like ESV or kent will raise the salinity over time. Not a huge deal, I guess, but any other issues?


Tony

[gasman059]

I just went the other way- I was dosing 2 part for 6 months or so nad currently i'm using a geo reactor for about a month, I've been tinkering with it not too much. After a while i figured might as well I'm slowly getting lots more sps's and just the tought of having to mix and drip again makes me sick LOL
BTW i used a INNOVATIVEAQUATICS.com doser and the thing worked great, quiet and realiable

[Big E]

Hi Tony,

I paid around $334 for the Liter meter I have. The extra pumps are $150 I think. It can control & be programmed for 3 different pumps. I've been using it for about 4 years for my topoff water. I've never had a more reliable piece of equipment.

This Aquatronica looks nice too. It has three pumps on it.
http://www.aquariumobsessed.com/

I don't know of any drawbacks. I'm using Randy's two part. I bought three 50# bags of Dow flake locally for $12 a piece & the alk part is common baking soda. It's less expensive than buying reactor media.

In this article he has recipes & breakdowns on a table of any buildup of elements. Mg is the only one that causes an issue & it seems minor. I don't worry about dosing Mg anyways.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php

I'm dosing about 25mls a day of each right now. At this level the three bags of Dow flake I have will last for years. I'm sure I'll have to raise this more but even 100mls a day is only 3 cups of solution a week.

[Reefflections]

Ed
I agree with ALL what you said about reactors.Also you forgot to mention your PH levels are better also. I shut down mine about 2 months ago,and couldn't be more pleased.I just do water changes and and Kalkwasser.This keeps Alk and Cal in check.The Kalkwasser you can really fine tune your PH levels,that couldn't never do with a reactor.I'm still considering the 2 part Randy's method,being you can make your own brew.It's now possible being he posted how to make it.It used to be a reactor was the cheap way to go.But not now with Randy's make up.Save a lot of money and headaches.
There is a guy in Conn.goes by Kedd here on RC.His tank and corals,grow like weeds.And it's all ESV products he uses.And has a lot of fish,and feeds heavy.He uses a Litemeter,and what a stunting tank he has.
We can actually go away,without worry about a melt down with a reactor.

[DaddyJax]

I agree with all that you are doing in switching but I feel that you may not like the long term results if your bioload does not increase. With out the extra nutrients that you reactor was giving, running a BB system in a 200g with only 1 fish is not going to last long IMO. I would watch closely for fading colors and bleaching.

I love Randy's 2 part and use it religiously! I want one of those dosing pumps bad and make up like 40g of each part and set it and forget it!!

[Reefflections]

Yep add some more fish in there.It will add more color and beauty.More fish will make it more of a natural looking reef.

[Chaotic Reefer4u]

interesting results/find, thanx for sharing...

[tonggao]

Part of the reason for algea grow with a reactor is the co2 injected into the reactor. When I first started using calcium reactor, I pumped way too much co2 than I should, and my tank was taken over by algea in two weeks of time. After dialed down the co2, most algea went away.

[60Cubed]

i have a cr-2 on my 60cube. i do have a problem keeping my ph above 8.0. other than that i only clean the glass a couple of times a week with a mag glass cleaner. i'll take that over dosing all the time! i don't know what my phosphates are, but my corals are growing like mad! i used the 2 part system for years. it works just is a pain in the rear IMO.

sometimes changing the parameters could effect corals as does changing your routine in weight lifting. once your body becomes accustomed to the workout, you have to shock it back into growth. could be the same thing here!?! MHO of course. you might see a gradual changing back of the corals long term. maybe not. i'll keep a check here to see your results long term. keep us posted.

[Big E]

Thanks for the responses guys..........I know dosing two part is no revelation as many are already doing it, but my goal was to see the results of dumping less raw phosphate into my system.
With the sophisticated dosers avaliable now it just gives me more control.

DaddyJax,
I have more fish, they are just temporarily separated at this point.
The tang has been alone the past nine months.
If I need more phosphate I may consider adding it chemically instead of just dumping in more food or increasing the fish load too much. Main reason being it's more controllable & measurable.
We'll see how things progress.

tonggao,
Yes I was wondering about the CO2. I've read/heard it dissolves out in a high flow area, which I've always had my effluent drip into a turbulent part of my sump.

60cubed,
I agree.....I think the spurt in growth on a few pieces is temporary. I've had this happen before.

The two most notable things are the film algae reduction & polyp extension on a handful of pieces. The rest is very subtle at this point.

For all I know the polyp extension can be a negative result as the corals could be reaching out for more food/light because of not having enough phosphate in the water. There's always too schools of thought on polyp extension.............but for the most part my corals were always worse off when the polyps weren't out normally.

[Reefflections]

As for changes with growth with changes.It's ALL guess work.I've keep SPS now over 10 years.No matter what you do reactor,or 2 parts.Some corals take a long time to grow period !.That's why we see $$$$ prices on exotic frags these days.I feel that ALL corals grow out at certain times.They ALL seem to have a rest period,no matter what system,or additives we use.Even a change out of new bulbs,will spurt new growth.
But feel that corals,grow out at different rates,no matter what we try to do.And some of these corals even like a higher PO 4 levels according to Randy on the Chemistry forum here.But again "we" have no idea what acro's do like the taste for higher PO4 levels..

[johnnybravo234]

great thread

[Big E]

Reefflections,
good posts, I agree


Here's a couple of comparison pics. First one was taken months ago so it's not a true/before after comparison......second one on 1/7/07. The first pic it looks bleached but I just over exposed it. The white area is actually pink. The color changes of the actual piece isn't that dramatic, the polyp extension in pic two is covering the pink base & give it a more orange look overall.

What I wanted everyone to take notice of was how the polyps are extended well off the base compared to the orginal pic. I've never seen extension like that on this piece before.

The coral is a moniti turgescens.

[IMG][/IMG]


[IMG][/IMG]

[Racenrich]

Yes, Very good thread here ED!

FWIW...ive been doing, B-Ionic 1 & 2, for almost 4years now....yes along time of daily dosing, granite ive missed a few days here and there, but were still going!
Overall, i've had pretty good success with this. i've tried the CR route before and required way too much tweaking and playing...(maybe it was the CR i had)...so i went back to my 2 part'r.

Currently i have a 120g tank, 56g sump and 22g prop all plumbed together and im doing about 100ml of each every morning.
parameters have been holding steady for quite some time....and yes i do water changes weekly...about 20g.

Be nice to see your results down the line.

Here is a current picture of my 120g....


Rich K.

[JRaquatics]

Rich, were do you get your b-ionic?

[kwl1763]

No doubt B-Ionic is good stuff. I dosed it for 2 years on a 20G and it was rockin. It would get a little pricey on my 450G though. If I had less then 100G I would probably do B-Ionic. I love the product.

[Reefflections]

Why are you people talking about where to buy it.Go to the Chemistry forum here.And Randy has a link to making the Cal,the Alk,and even Mag.I haven't done it yet.But surely will NEVER buy it.It's really cheap to make,no matter how big of a system you have.The subject is called " making 2 parts " It good stuff,it easy and CHEAP !Don't spend your money by buying it.You are thowing your money away......
ANYTHING in this hobby that is cheap,is a rareity in it's self.

[Chicago]

i am about to switch over to the two part system.... my large calcium reactor cannot handle the needs of the system...

i was dosing kents two part and the tank was doing much better...i left the reactor running...

i bet i am getting phosphates from the reator also.

[Racenrich]

FWIW.
One thing.....sure you can make your own 1 & 2, to offset the cost of the hobby, yet working as a R & D Chemist.....I've learned you get what you pay for...we can order 99.0% purity and we can also order 99.9% purity grade chemicals. The cost between the two is outrageous.
For self assurance and peace of mind, i'll stick with what the LFS has on the shelf for sale. It's an aquarium grade product and its made by specific standards, guidelines and regulations.

Do you know whats in? driveway salt, baking soda, etc? those are all consumer grade materials, not commercial. Those standards are not as stringent as actual chemical manufactures.

All i'm saying is I feel comfortable using what's made for the Hobby and that alone is worth the extra cost.

P.S. Their are plenty of other ways to skimp......

JR...Aquatica in Tinley park has it all the time. Tell Rob i sent ya!

Cheers!

[hansnfrans]

Here's a link to the improved 2-part. Very inexpensive to make. Works for me.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php

[gnikoli]

>>2. I wanted to see the effects of the reduction of phosphate being added from the ARM media.<<

Is this a fact? I've been running ARM for about 8 months and I have never had detectible PO4 (Salifert test kit) but I have had to agressively deal with algae. I understand that CO2 from a reactor can be an issue, but I thought PO4 and ARM were the least of my worries.

Thanks.