Step-by-step account of my first reef (with lots of pics) - Page 36

melev · #**876** 11/07/2006, 10:51 PM

Clint, I know this won't help a bit, but I can't keep a blue tort alive if my life depended on it. It is my kryptonite.

With the corals being in quarantine, even if some AEFW did migrate during treatment, they would be killed at next week's dip. That's the whole basis for weekly treatments, to kill stragglers or newly born flatworms.

fishypets · #**877** 11/07/2006, 11:58 PM

When I did the in tank treatment I removed 50 gallons of QT tank water and placed in a seperate holding tub. I lowered the Stream and mixed up enough fluke tab for 35 gallons of water. I set the timer for 40 minutes and added the fluke tabs to the QT tank. After the timer went off I removed all the corals and rinsed before adding to the tub with the other 50 gallons. I then vacuumed the bottom of the QT tank removing 100% of the water that was left. I then added water from the holding bin back to the QT tank and placed the corals in and toped off with fresh salt water I had made two nights before. I left the house around 3:05 p.m. and returned 4 hours later to find most of my tables had RTN'D. I figured no big deal and removed them, checked P.H., KH and CA. I went to bed only to wake up to more dead acros. Since then it has been a downward spiral and I'm afraid it won't stop until they are all gone.

fishypets · #**878** 11/08/2006, 12:10 AM

Marc,

The answer to your question about temp swing is 77 at in the morning when I wake up and 79 when I go to bed so I don't feel temp is the issue. I am starting to wonder if a few of the corals that were in the streams direct path as I was adding the fluke tabs stressed out and RTN'N causing the rest of this mess?

melev · #**879** 11/08/2006, 01:08 AM

I really don't have an answer for you, Clint. According to Stoney, all you need are 20 minute dips even though I've had stuff in the medication for almost 60 minutes total, at least once.

I've seen quite a few people tear down their tanks in an attempt to save their livestock along this method, and it just seems too invasive or reactive. I gave it some thought myself when I had the same infestation, but I decided to only treat the corals that were obviously affected. While it is still possible that my words could come back to haunt me later, it seems like I was able to kill them on a few corals instead of following a similar procedure that you utilized. A couple of small frags died during the past few months, but overall the SPS seem to be fine or healing.

I was really impressed with your hospital tank system, and hoped for the best. It really is disappointing when such efforts are rewarded with serious losses.

fishypets · #**880** 11/08/2006, 10:11 PM

Many thanks for your support and knowledge Marc. Maybe one day I'll have a nice reef again.

Mike-

Chin up buddy there are a few corals that are still somewhat healthy. I'll keep my hands out of the tank tonight and see what happens tomorrow.

Dudester · #**881** 11/08/2006, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fishypets
Maybe one day I'll have a nice reef again.

I'd bet on it!

techreef · #**882** 11/09/2006, 09:49 AM

Guys, we're all sorry to see you experiencing this awful turn of luck with your tanks. Thank you very much for letting all of us tag along with your trials and tribulations. We all learn so much from great documentation of efforts like yours, and perhaps we can find the one or two possible mis-steps that occurred during your hospitalization and treatment procedures. This is a great thread, and you're helping everyone in the hobby improve their husbandry skills, as well as adding to the hobby literature. My tank is very young; i don't have corals to frag and help you recover, but I could try and nab one of my four hitchhiking pistol shrimp if that would appeal to y'all. Best of luck with your continuing efforts!

Dudester · #**883** 11/09/2006, 06:46 PM

Thank you for the concern you project in your post, techreef (what's your name, anyway?). While we are clearly upset and disappointed with our losses, it's not the end of the world and we are not looking for pity. We truly wish to document our successes as well as our failures, so that others can learn from our experiences. We're down, but not out, right Clint? Right, Clint??? Thanks also for offering up your pistol shrimp. Please allow them to continue to thrive in your tank. Wow, 4 hitchhiking shrimp, score one for you, eh?

I spoke with Clint last night and heard from him this morning, and it seems as though the chain of death may have been severed. I'm anxious to hear from him tonight to see how the remaining corals are doing.

techreef · #**884** 11/09/2006, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Wow, 4 hitchhiking shrimp, score one for you, eh?

Paid for by much blood, sweat, and tears of frustration caused by mantis shrimp, gorilla crabs, predatory whelks, and cirolanids, my friend! When they say that TBS live rock is loaded with life, they are. not. kidding.

Looking forward to more pics of both of your successful tanks. Cheers,
Stephen (there, I'm anonymous no more)

fishypets · #**885** 11/09/2006, 07:47 PM

So far I have not seen anymore RTN in the last 36 hours so things are looking up. Chin is up and a smile is on my face.

jnarowe · #**886** 11/09/2006, 07:53 PM

I would be on the floor, face down, in my own spit after all that!

techreef · #**887** 11/09/2006, 08:05 PM

jnarowe, reading your posted Interests, I think I know what caused your stroke!

jnarowe · #**888** 11/09/2006, 08:23 PM

no kidding! Well, it was actually psuedoephedrine...don't mess with those sinus remedies!

Dudester · #**889** 11/09/2006, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fishypets
So far I have not seen anymore RTN in the last 36 hours so things are looking up. Chin is up and a smile is on my face.

That's great news

Quote:

I would be on the floor, face down, in my own spit after all that!

Nothing like a little levity to cure what ails ya!

Techreef, er a, Stephen, you're right in that I do owe everyone some pics of my newest corals, the open brain and the monti danae. Now that I'm no longer trembling in fear of losing all of my acros, I should be able to snap some photos soon.

ikatobiko · #**890** 11/10/2006, 03:33 PM

Well I have about $1000.00 worth of new frags in my 10 gallon QT. I am also seeing some RTN (from the bottom up!?!?!) and also some frags are exhibiting little to no PE. I know it is not the Fluke Tabs since I have only treated with FT out of the QT. I can't see any AEFWs or eggs under the magnifying glass and sincethe fags are relatively small, I do not believe I have any in the QT.

I measured my QT tank parameters and this is what I found:

Ph: 8.2
Temp: 78 deg +/- 1 degree
Ca: 435
Alk: 11.0
PO4: 0
NO3: 0
NO2:0
NH4: 0

I am running a small red Sea Prizm skimmer for filtratiion and a 175 w MH, hung far away from the top of the tank!

I do water changes every other day and top of with RODI every AM and PM. Recently, since the water parameters are good and stable I am not doing water changes.

One frag RTNd on the bottom ofthe main stalk and then jsut stopped RTNing. Others have done the same. A few are gone altogether! If things do not improve, I may do one more FT dip and place them all in my display this weekend, although I planned on keeping the frags in QT for another week so I could treat with FT one more time.

jnarowe · #**891** 11/10/2006, 03:54 PM

My experience has been that the longer I leave frags in the QT, the higher the probability is that they will RTN. I have switched to dipping in Lugol's, Tech-D and holding for observation for 2 - 4 days. I also dose Lugols to the QT while holding the frags. If the frags look healthy and pass inspection, then I move them to the main. I have a much better survival rate this way.

IMO, 10g is just too darn small for any more than 1 or 2 frags. My QT is 29g and I get nervous with more than 4 - 5 frags. There is just too much chemical competition in such a small water volume. In a 10g, I would change out 2 qt. every day.

Dudester · #**892** 11/11/2006, 05:11 PM

ikatobiko - There are a lot of options as to how to treat AEFW. Melev has chosen a different route than Clint and I selected, and by the pics on Marc's thread I can attest to his success thus far. I'm sure you're aware of the multitude of threads out here on RC regarding the treatment of AEFW, and it's up to each of us to decide which path we wish to take since there's no single "right way" to do it. I hope you are successful with your treatment. What will be the total duration of your treatment, as I believe 8 weeks is near the minimum time period that is recommended based on the flatworm's known life cycle? I agree that if the corals appear to be suffering, it may be better to get them back into the display, as long as you don't mind the risk of re-infecting your tank. Good luck and keep us posted.

Quote:

My experience has been that the longer I leave frags in the QT, the higher the probability is that they will RTN. I have switched to dipping in Lugol's, Tech-D and holding for observation for 2 - 4 days. I also dose Lugols to the QT while holding the frags. If the frags look healthy and pass inspection, then I move them to the main. I have a much better survival rate this way.

jnarowe - This reference is to the quarantine of newly acquired corals, not specifically for the treatment of AEFW, correct?

I just got home from our November reef club meeting. We had an acrylic workshop and learned the finer points of working with this material. It was very informative and I'm no longer intimidated by acrylic. Now I just need to get a table saw, a jointer, some weld-on, and a bigger workshop, and I'll be good to go!

ikatobiko · #**893** 11/11/2006, 11:50 PM

Dudester, I treated 2x with Fluke Tabs and 1 time with Interceptor. My original plan was to do 3 Fluke Tab treatments each a week apart and then put them in the "system" either in the frag tank or the display.Since the corals were not doing as well as I hoped, I cut the quarantine period by 1 week. I inspected all frags for eggs under a magnifying glass and found no eggs. Also there were no worms on the bottom of the bucket after the FT treatments.

I had to make a tough decision, but these corals are the first ones to go into my system and some of them are rare and expensive. So I decided to put them in my frag tank connected to my main system. If they had AEFWS then I won't lose anything else except these frags since I have no other acros in my tank at present (lost all acros to AEFWs last year).

I do believe that I need to get better at keeping corals in the QT for extended periods. I will definitely be adding a sump to the QT along with an overflow and a return pump. I'll shoot for at least a 50 gallon sump or larger, depending upon space constraints.

I have been following many threads on the AEFWs and so far the Fluke Tabs seem to be working for a few. I also have some TMPCC that I may try on the next batch of frags. I have used Levamisole in the past and have experienced bad results....lots of loses. It's hard for me to continue using a treatment that is so hard on the frags, especially since a fraction of the frags are most likely AEFW free! Usually I buy small frags from people who have had them for a while in their tanks with no AEFWS. Buyng small frags also reduces the risk. Treatment in a QT further reduces risk but does not make it zero. I guess everyone has to accept some amount of risk with acros...it just depends on what you are comortable with.

I didn't want to risk losing all of the frags so I accepted some risk that they could be infested, but I think the risk is low enough so that I am comfortable with it.

crab0000 · #**894** 11/12/2006, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ikatobiko
Well I have about $1000.00 worth of new frags in my 10 gallon QT. I am also seeing some RTN (from the bottom up!?!?!) and also some frags are exhibiting little to no PE. I know it is not the Fluke Tabs since I have only treated with FT out of the QT. I can't see any AEFWs or eggs under the magnifying glass and sincethe fags are relatively small, I do not believe I have any in the QT.

I measured my QT tank parameters and this is what I found:

Ph: 8.2
Temp: 78 deg +/- 1 degree
Ca: 435
Alk: 11.0
PO4: 0
NO3: 0
NO2:0
NH4: 0

I am running a small red Sea Prizm skimmer for filtratiion and a 175 w MH, hung far away from the top of the tank!

I do water changes every other day and top of with RODI every AM and PM. Recently, since the water parameters are good and stable I am not doing water changes.

One frag RTNd on the bottom ofthe main stalk and then jsut stopped RTNing. Others have done the same. A few are gone altogether! If things do not improve, I may do one more FT dip and place them all in my display this weekend, although I planned on keeping the frags in QT for another week so I could treat with FT one more time.

Yu may want to try lowering your Alk. I had several SPS receding from the bottom up and checked my Alk and it was 14, we were out of town the week before and the calcium reactor drip rate slowed to nearly nothing while the CO2 remained the same. Once I lowered the Alk the receding stopped and the SPS have begun to recover. JME

Stoney Mahony · #**895** 11/12/2006, 01:27 PM

Sorry to hear of all the losses Dudester and Fishy

. I didn't even know this thread was over here! Your prop tank and set up look premo and there is definately no clear explanation as to what happened here. It really sucks. The only thing that kinda stuck out to me after reading the thread was the large amount of water used in the water change. Did you guys do a bunch of tests on the new sw to check it's parameters and make sure it was about the same as the old? I have had a few salt brands raise my alk like a mother and with a big water change, it could have had a big effect on my tank. Awesome documentation and again sorry to hear. I have a few corals I can frag for free to get you going again. PM me when you guys are set up

. They are AEFW free, I swear!!

Dudester · #**896** 11/12/2006, 06:47 PM

Quote:

If they had AEFWS then I won't lose anything else except these frags since I have no other acros in my tank at present (lost all acros to AEFWs last year).

Wow, what perseverence to stick with it and treat AEFW twice! More power to you, as I hope to never have to go through this again. Regarding your comment about the TMPPC, it definitely kills the AEFW, although it's harsher on the corals than the Fluke-Tabs. This, I believe (like you do), is the biggest benefit of using the Fluke-Tabs as opposed to other treatments (betadyne, Lugol's, Levamisole, fresh water, etc.). Let us all know how your corals do when they're back in your main tank.

crab0000 - Thanks for sharing your experience as well, good point about the alkalinity.

Stoney Mahony - How'd you find this thread, Stoney? Glad to have you here. Sorry for disappointing you with our treatment failure, I guess we didn't follow your recipe by the number, and it may have bitten us in the arse. I'll have to defer answering questions about the saltwater parameters to Clint, since I was lazy and didn't even go to his house that day to help with the treatment (guess I deserve what I got, eh?). I do know that he uses Tropic Marin Pro, which doesn't have a very high alkalinity. That's extremely kind of you to offer us frags - this is truly a great hobby filled with generous people.

fishypets · #**897** 11/12/2006, 10:30 PM

Stoney-

I do use T.M pro and make sure p.h./k.h. are the same or very close before I perform a water change. Infact the water change I did last week was only a 20 gallon change and the weeks before was closer to 35 gallons. I'm sure where I went wrong was adding the fluke tabs directly to the 20 gallons of water in the QT tank instead of adding corals to buckets of water with fluke tab already circulating. If I remeber correctly the first table that RTN'd was in the direct flow of the Tunze Stream that I was using to circulate the Fluke tabs.

On a side note it has been one week since our first loss and when I awoke this morning the unpleasant smell of dead acros was present in my living room.

Here is what I pulled and trashed today.

More dead acros

jnarowe · #**898** 11/12/2006, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dudester

jnarowe - This reference is to the quarantine of newly acquired corals, not specifically for the treatment of AEFW, correct?

Yes, That is correct. I have never treated for AEFW. That is why I am following your thread an I am sorry if my post was confusing.

Dudester · #**899** 11/12/2006, 11:21 PM

Clint, MAKE IT STOP!!!!

fishypets · #**900** 11/12/2006, 11:58 PM

I wish I knew how Mike. Call me tomorrow, my new skimmer should be in and I was going to head to kingfish for a little while.