my house reef (211 g.) - Page 39

Tagareef · #**951** 03/27/2006, 08:13 PM

Jake2045,

For now, type in: 216.55.183.207 ...until the site is repaired.

Sorry for not posting a link...I didn't want to get in trouble!

Luis

jake2045 · #**952** 03/27/2006, 08:54 PM

Thanks for the help Meso pm it to me. Dang I was having withdrawals.

mesocosm · #**953** 03/27/2006, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by robthorn
... have you read the coral magazine issues 1 through 6 or 7 that deal with nutirents in the aquarium? I am through 5 of them and I need to go back and re read them a few times to really grasp everything but it is at least giving me a better understanding of what is going on ...

Those articles are great stuff!

That being said ... they unfortunately don't really address what's going on with bacterioplankton filtration. They are an easy read, and they do present critical issues and concepts relevant to bacteriplankton filtration.

The folks who really ought to take an interest in the articles are the BB Berlin-style reefers who have achieved a "stripped nutrient" water column ... particularly article VI which specifically addresses nitrogen and phosphorous limitation in a still organic carbon-limited water column (water columns resulting from bacterioplankton filtration are fundamentally different in that they are not organic carbon-limited).

BTW, when I write about "carbon limitation", I am referring specifically to DOC ("dissolved organic carbon") ... Not DIC ("dissolved inorganic carbon"). The distinction between organic vs. inorganic carbon limitation is significant. There is simply no way for a viable reef aquarium to be inorganic carbon limited ... think about how much CO2 and HCO3 (among others) is present.

JMO.

If you haven't come across Jorg Kokott's "Nutrients in the Reef Aquarium" articles, they are definitely worth a read ...

Nutrients in the Reef Aquarium - Part I
(Coral magazine, February/March 2004)
The fundamentals about nutrients and their concentration in seawater.

Nutrients in the Reef Aquarium - Part II
(Coral magazine, April/May 2004)
Feeding mechanisms of zooxanthellae corals - a concept based on symbiosis.

Nutrients in the Reef Aquarium - Part III
(Coral magazine, June/July 2004)
Feeding zooxanthellate corals.

Nutrients in the Reef Aquarium - Part IV
(Coral magazine, August/September 2004)
The Biological Function and Turnover of Nutrients.

Nutrients in the Reef Aquarium - Part V
(Coral magazine, December 2004/January 2005)
Iron - An Essential Metal We Know Nothing About.

Nutrients in the Reef Aquarium - Part VI
(Coral magazine, February/March 2005)
Understanding the Concept of the Nutrient-Limited Reef Aquarium.

Here's the website for Coral magazine ...
http://www.coralmagazine.com

Here's the "back issues" page of Coral magazine's website ...
http://www.coralmagazine.com/backIssues.htm

Here's Coral magazine's "contact us" page of CORAL magazine's website ...
http://www.coralmagazine.com/contactUs.htm

Also ...

Coral magazine's Advertising Sales Department:
1011 South Linwood Avenue
Santa Ana, CA 92705
Phone: 714-543-4100
FAX: 714-543-4800

FYI

mesocosm · #**954** 03/27/2006, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TryTheChi
... The conclusion I draw from this is that we dont know the exact mechanism for P04 reduction or what the whole PO4 picture is.

I'd be interested to hear if in the longer term Iwan is taking out sequestered PO4 with the top level of the tank DSB.

...

Many thanks for the detailed response ... MUCH appreciated!

My own limitation of perception regarding the "whole PO4 picture" is more than a little disturbing. After all, we're talking about particulate organic phosphate (POP), dissolved organic phosphate (DOP), particulate inorganic phosphate (PIP), and dissolved inorganic phosphate (DIP) ... my mind boggles when it realizes that I can only test for one of these. The best I can do is this type of visualization ...

[This is modelled after Wheaton (Wheaton, F. W. 1997. Aquacultural Engineering. Robert E. Kreiger Publishing Co., Malabarm Florida, USA.) and is a really bad reproduction of a graphic which appears in Delbeek and Sprung's The Reef Aquarium. Science, Art, and Technology (2005).]

Thank the gods of reefkeeping that biofilms seem to have no such visualization difficulties.

I too am curious as to the extent that siphoning of the upper layer of the DSB serves a "phosphate export" function.

JMO

Reefdaddy1 · #**955** 03/27/2006, 11:00 PM

Could someone please answer me on this. Is the DSB in europe with Plenum? Or is it jsut DSB? I have seen both in pages on thier websites , But would like to know what the standard is. And what Is Iwan ruinning on his? Thanks

ScubaTC · #**956** 03/27/2006, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TryTheChi
...As i understand it - the surfacs zoo become lighter - allowing the underlying color to be seen better in a low nutrient environment and if one tips over into nutrient starvation STN or bleaching is the risk. When I started observing a bleaching tendancy - I dosed zeo CV then AAHC which acted as food and reversed the bleaching tendancy and improved coloration and growth....

Hi Simon,

I've still been following this thread and the recent posts are very interesting. BTW thanks for the help you've given me through various PMs. While using Prodibio for almost a month now, besides the amazing PE I have began noticing lightening in some of the SPS corals as well as color beginning to show more dominantly on the tips of some. A few of my SPS corals that have previously never shown colored tips are beginning to show color for the first time. In fact, one of my small frags has already produced a pronounced bluish-teal green tip, which was always brown before.

My primary concern right now is coral lightening. After reading your comments it leaves me without question that I need to begin supplementing additional coral food and trace elements (CV and AAHC) to avoid nutrient starvation. I have a purple SPS with brown polyps. The once purple tips on this SPS have now gotten so light that they have begun to almost whiten. This is worrying me as I have yet to buy the CV and AAHC additives and did not think that it would be critical to begin using them so soon after using Prodi for about 4 weeks. Until I can start these, do you have any other recommendations as a temporary substitute for these additives to help address the whitening tips? I was also thinking of holding off on the next Prodi bact doses, but continue to maintain Reef Booster doses. I've been keeping an eye on my chateo in the sump and it seems to be maintaining it's size at this point (no growth and no decline). So I did not think my nutrients were that low as of yet.

Before I started Prodi my phosphates and nitrates were already undetectable using Salifert tests. Since I've started dosing Prodi I've also began running carbon 24/7 in the sump and performing weekly 15% water changes in place of the routine monthly changes.

Regards

doody · #**957** 03/27/2006, 11:48 PM

I thought that carbon was a no no for the Iwan methode

ahchung · #**958** 03/27/2006, 11:59 PM

Does it require a strong skimmer for Prodibio products to work?

ScubaTC · #**959** 03/28/2006, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ahchung
Does it require a strong skimmer for Prodibio products to work?

My skimate was a little darker after starting Prodibio and now I have notice a reduction in how much is produced daily. I believe others have also noted that skimate is reduced due to the low nutrient environment the bacteria is establishing.

ScubaTC · #**960** 03/28/2006, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by doody
I thought that carbon was a no no for the Iwan methode

It's been so long ago since I read through this thread, but the reason I started using carbon is because I am sure it was recommended somewhere within the thread to run AC 24/7 while using Prodibio. I could be wrong though.

doody · #**961** 03/28/2006, 12:33 AM

Just checked my note, and your right Simon recomended 24/7 use of passive AC. I cut and past highlights to MS Word.

ScubaTC · #**962** 03/28/2006, 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by doody
... I cut and past highlights to MS Word.

Same here. I had to start doing that a while back to keep track as well as come up with a product/dosing regimen with additional important info.

TryTheChi · #**963** 03/28/2006, 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Reefdaddy1
Could someone please answer me on this. Is the DSB in europe with Plenum? Or is it jsut DSB? I have seen both in pages on thier websites , But would like to know what the standard is. And what Is Iwan ruinning on his? Thanks

I havent seen any reference to a plenum in Iwan's system and I dont think there is a standard in Europe - some are plenum based DSBs (not many tank based as far as I can see - more sump located plenum DSBs), some DSB or MSB and some BB. Personally I run a BB tank with a non plenum MSB in the sump which is 20% of the tank floor space - with no NO3 since prodi. Detritus settles in the tank and 1st sump compartment.

Cheers

Simon

ahchung · #**964** 03/28/2006, 02:03 AM

Do you mean that amount of bacteria will increase? If so, will there be a limit on it (i.e., nutrition level will increase after maximum amount of bacteria is established)?

Quote:

Originally posted by ScubaTC
My skimate was a little darker after starting Prodibio and now I have notice a reduction in how much is produced daily. I believe others have also noted that skimate is reduced due to the low nutrient environment the bacteria is establishing.

TryTheChi · #**965** 03/28/2006, 02:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ScubaTC
. Until I can start these, do you have any other recommendations as a temporary substitute for these additives to help address the whitening tips? I was also thinking of holding off on the next Prodi bact doses, but continue to maintain Reef Booster doses.

Before I started Prodi my phosphates and nitrates were already undetectable using Salifert tests. Since I've started dosing Prodi I've also began running carbon 24/7 in the sump and performing weekly 15% water changes in place of the routine monthly changes.

Regards

Hi Scuba

Great to hear that coloration has improved - and there is more to come when you dose CV and AAHC if my experience is anything to go by

Its hard to suggest alternatives to the zeo branded additives as KS dont disclose content - so one is left with pulling off something labeled amino acids from the LFS? Articles 3 and 4 in coral mag that Meso posted discuss this.

As you are low nutrient already - sounds like it could be sensible to suspend Digest and Tpim until you get the food sources.

In the meantime this thread could be helpful?

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...5&pagenumber=3

CAreefer has used ZB4 for 18 months as nutrient control - but since he started on CV and K-B his coloration has improved significantly - sorry I lost the link to that thread - a search for 'Zeo' will find it though. Previously his sps looked light to me too.

Re the use of Carbon - the zeo method recomend passive use (or a portion in thier reactors) 24/7 - but the key point emphasised here is that gentle passive use is to be aimed at. Since I changed from powered CAG use to more passive use - I saw better coloration - probably because the CAG wasnt taking out the zeo elements so quickly.

Just a question on w/c - is there any reason to change so much water each week? What salt brand you you use?

Have you any before/after pics to share?

Cheers

Simon

TryTheChi · #**966** 03/28/2006, 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ahchung
Does it require a strong skimmer for Prodibio products to work?

Re skimmers - Iwan has 2 (although I'v read that its best to use the same size and brand if one is running 2 otherwise the stronger has all the action - so would be interesting to hear Iwan's experience)- dedicated Zeoheads like monster skimmers - I run one rated for 4 times the tank volume. The skimmate produced after prodi is introduced was much darker for a period, but now is lighter and I'm not sure that such a large capacity skimmer is needed now - it just bubbles away taking very little out until after fish feeding.

Best practice would suggest going big, if one feeds a large fish bioload alot...

Cheers

SImon

TryTheChi · #**967** 03/28/2006, 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by doody
I thought that carbon was a no no for the Iwan methode

Its Ozone and UV that are a theortical no no as they destroy the bacs in the water column. However I did run my UV for a few days when I noticed some STN after fragging- then stopped UV when the STN stopped, then dosed Prodi again - no ill effects were observed.

Cheers

SImon

tangblack · #**968** 03/28/2006, 05:35 AM

I found that since i stopped my rowa phos my po4 went up again.
I have been dosing bio digest. biptum, weekly to see if it would drop the po4 .

My po4 went up to .16ppm so i tried po4 buster by carib sea,
It works great as the next day my po4 was .01ppm. no problems with any corals so it put out the theory that dropping po4 quickly will cause rtn/stn.

I am dosing bio digest/biotum every two weeks as my tank it looking too clean. all my snails are dying since there is nothing to eat.

Iwan hoe is the new amino acid going from reefstar, i just started doing it yesterday.
Looks like a very good amino acid as it is suppose to be the best quality. i hear the bottles they come in cost a bit.

tangblack · #**969** 03/28/2006, 05:41 AM

i also understand that there is a article coming out on tests done on some coral food.
They test a nunber of foods and found that they where not good quality. I understand that the DT plankton is suppose to be really good coral food.

MiddletonMark · #**970** 03/28/2006, 07:09 AM

DT's phyto?

It's arguable [as they intake it at times] - but many folks believe that Acropora-types don't consume a significant amount of phytoplankton.
IME, it's a product that easily causes nutrient problems - so I've chosen other sources of nutrition that don't seem to haze my glass so quickly.

TryTheChi · #**971** 03/28/2006, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tangblack
i also understand that there is a article coming out on tests done on some coral food.
They test a nunber of foods and found that they where not good quality. I understand that the DT plankton is suppose to be really good coral food.

I understood that corals only derive a very small amount of energy from phyto plancton and that the benefits of dosing were to boost zoo plancton populations which coral do eat.....? Will be interesting to see the article.

Reefdaddy1 · #**972** 03/28/2006, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TryTheChi
I havent seen any reference to a plenum in Iwan's system and I dont think there is a standard in Europe - some are plenum based DSBs (not many tank based as far as I can see - more sump located plenum DSBs), some DSB or MSB and some BB. Personally I run a BB tank with a non plenum MSB in the sump which is 20% of the tank floor space - with no NO3 since prodi. Detritus settles in the tank and 1st sump compartment.

Cheers

Simon

Thanks Simon Appreciate the response.

melev · #**973** 03/28/2006, 06:44 PM

Simon, a page ago you mentioned about possibly starvation to the SPS. Would not ReefBooster provide that necessary nutrient for the corals to dine upon?

TryTheChi · #**974** 03/28/2006, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by melev
Simon, a page ago you mentioned about possibly starvation to the SPS. Would not ReefBooster provide that necessary nutrient for the corals to dine upon?

Good point Marc - I had'nt thought of dosing booster more regularly. PE is superb when I do. Thanks - I'll give that a go@ twise a week.

I'v also just re read Iwan's www section on DSBs where he reports better coral coloration after putting in his 10cm (4 inch) dsb at the begining of 2005. This seems to link in with what Meso was pointing out earlier, and also reports here

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...12#post7061712

I feel an aragonite order comming on......I'm secretly pleased because that means I can also get a colony of yellow headed jawfish - mercats of the sea

This one my wife will agree to - she loves these......

pangea · #**975** 03/28/2006, 11:48 PM

Anyone having issues with either? After dosing my 125 with 1-Digest / 2-Bioptim waiting three days and then dosing 1-Booster, I had an Acro RTN. This happened the night after dosing Booster, about half gone-next evening all gone. Today I noticed a Pocillopora starting.

Water perams are good. I feed CV and freeze dried mix of rotifers, spirulina and several GP sizes (5-100micron) as well.

I'm going to hold off on the Booster a few weeks 'till this get stable... hopefully.