OK! Enough chat...Starting a 1000g+ Reef - Page 27

Sparkss · #**651** 05/15/2007, 10:27 AM

Tim,

Having dealt with you personally on our tank and pumps, and having talked with you at length on the phone on more than one occassion, I am sure that you will get it figured out. I sincerely hope that ambient temperature is not the silver bullet, as rarely does anyone keep their fish room (or house) at 72 degrees year round.

I did check our pumps a couple of days ago and 2 were running around 80 - 90 degrees and the other 2 were up over 120+. Guess it's time to clean the 2 "hot" wet ends ? Make me want to go back out there later on today to take more readings and actually write them down (versus trying to go from memory).

Jonathan,

What temp did you say your pumps run at ? Seems like I recall having read you post the temperatures once, a while back.

Enderrea · #**652** 05/15/2007, 10:33 AM

Now That is what i call Service!
Tim, you just made Jonathan have a heart attack!

EcoTech Marine · #**653** 05/15/2007, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sparkss

I did check our pumps a couple of days ago and 2 were running around 80 - 90 degrees and the other 2 were up over 120+. Guess it's time to clean the 2 "hot" wet ends ? Make me want to go back out there later on today to take more readings and actually write them down (versus trying to go from memory).

Tom-

Thanks for the kind words.

Regarding temps, don't worry about it: The pumps are microprocessor controlled to run within a safe range. They won't damage themselves.
There will be some variation in the temperatures that these pumps run. My point is that they're designed to be left alone to do their thing, as they keep tabs on themselves.

-Tim

jnarowe · #**654** 05/15/2007, 12:43 PM

Tom, I am trying to keep mine in the 120F range. I believe they are spec'd to slow down at 140F (Coorrect me if I am wrong Tim!). On many occassions I have seen mine slow in response to over-heating. After my acrylic got crazed, I bought a non-contact temp. sensor to find out how hot they were getting and regularly saw readings between 135F and 145F. I now run them between 60 - 70% or so to keep the temp. down, although as you know, I don't really know what the percentage is or even if the control is linear.

Your temps. are well below the danger zone and within spec. and as Tim wrote, I wouldn't worry about it. If you feel that temps. are rising, I would visually inspect the gasket to make sure that the magnet is not rubbing on them. The wear is very apparent and can be the cause of excessive heat.

I think there are many different things playing into my Vortech experience, most of which are well beyond normal R & D.

Food for thought in regards to why I am having so many issues:

-- Tank room temp. and humidity is above normal (if this does indeed become the top-line issue, I am afraid there will be a lot of resistance to the MP-40 long term);

-- I am using 1000W Sunlight ballasts which have been indicated in some interference issues;

-- my tank is 3/4" acrylic which may or may not be exact, and is on the outside edge fo the Vortech's specs. It could even be slightly bowed and causing a problem.

-- I was using an ACIII Pro to control the pumps (I can't risk any ON/OFF cycles at this point so I just leave them on 24/7);

These are just the lingering questions in my system. Tim has worked with me throughout this ordeal and I can imagine that the Eco-Tech team is getting tired of dealing with me. Unfortunately for them and me, I cannot go back and put in closed loops without even more pain and the total dismantling of my system, so they are stuck with my outer-edge install. There really are no good alternatives IMO as I distinctly dislike their closest competitor's products with the heat, wires, etc. in the water column. In fact I plan on installing two more MP-40s bringing the total to 7 before the end of the year. Lucky Tim!

I sure wish I could run them flat out too.

I am currently thinking about how to bring down the temp. and humidity in the tank room without instaling a chiller or HVAC unit. When I originally designed the system, I added extra valves for later expansion and one was slated for a heat exchanger/ground loop. That may help control the tank temp. but its affect on the tank room itself may not be enough to counter the current conditions.

One of the key reasons why I selected the Vortech was to make my system as electrically efficient as possible, but unfortunately, I may have to eat up that savings with and HVAC unit and that is really depressing.

EcoTech Marine · #**655** 05/15/2007, 02:11 PM

Jon-

You won't have to add an HVAC for the VorTechs, (however I personally feel you need ventilation in your tank room from our convos) and no, this is not a long term issue. The pumps were thoroughly tested in 90deg summer heat with humidity above the 70% mark. As in: it was so unbearable that we couldn't be in the test room with anything more than shorts on.

They performed fine. Were the hot? Sure, of course they were hot, its all about temperature differentials (Newton's law of cooling). However, did they break? No. The worst that would happen is some pumps that ran hotter than others would slow down for a period, something we designed into them. The pumps will run coolest between 70 and 80deg ambient.

Jon- in response to your energy efficient tank room, getting the heat and humidity OUT of your tank room will go much further in cooling your tank more efficiently than any chiller. Your tank is no different than a VorTech, the amount of heat that can be removed from your tank through evaporation is limited by the amount of heat and humidity in your tank room. Keeping all that heat and humidity in your tank room really isn't the greatest idea in the world, long term.

However, it's really up to you. Whatever issues you're having with the VorTechs are issues you and I will sort out. Under no circumstance should you feel compelled to add an HVAC just for the VorTech units. It would be a waste of your energy.

-Tim

gkarshens · #**656** 05/15/2007, 02:38 PM

What about a big exhaust fan? With as cool as it is up there most of the year let Mother Nature cool your room.

Sparkss · #**657** 05/15/2007, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by EcoTech Marine
Jon-

You won't have to add an HVAC for the VorTechs, (however I personally feel you need ventilation in your tank room from our convos) and no, this is not a long term issue. The pumps were thoroughly tested in 90deg summer heat with humidity above the 70% mark. As in: it was so unbearable that we couldn't be in the test room with anything more than shorts on.

They performed fine. Were the hot? Sure, of course they were hot, its all about temperature differentials (Newton's law of cooling). However, did they break? No. The worst that would happen is some pumps that ran hotter than others would slow down for a period, something we designed into them. The pumps will run coolest between 70 and 80deg ambient.

.......

-Tim

That was what I was concerned about.. I can only imagine, based on last year's experiences, what this year will hold for ambient temperatures in our fish room

.

We also invested in a non-contact temp. sensor some time ago to monitor our sequence return pump and other equipment.. and of course we periodically use them to monitor our Vortecs

jnarowe · #**658** 05/15/2007, 03:28 PM

Well guys, my tank room has a large exhaust fan (which you have seen Gabriel!). I do need to vacuum the vent though and keep forgetting. It gets filled with bugs over time. It worked really well during last year's fairly hot Summer, but perhaps when it dies I will get an even more powerful one.

Tim, if you tested the pumps in 90deg summer heat with humidity above the 70% mark, then why are mine having so much trouble with heat at 75 - 80F and 50% humidity?

And believe me, I have a thorough understanding of the effect of removing the heat and humidity vs. using a chiller or ground loop. However, it may just be that since building it the exhaust system efficiency has declined while I have added more heat producing equipment to the room, making it unable to keep up.

I just went down there before the lights had come on and it was a little warm. All I need to do (and did) is adjust the temp. switch on the exhaust fan. What I will do is lower that so that it runs more, and see what the result is. Unfortunately I don't think it will be enough to get the Vortechs to run at full power without overheating. My tank crazed long before I added additional equipment and at the time, the room temp and humidity was lower on average.

BTW, third day with no stalls!

EcoTech Marine · #**659** 05/15/2007, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jnarowe

Tim, if you tested the pumps in 90deg summer heat with humidity above the 70% mark, then why are mine having so much trouble with heat at 75 - 80F and 50% humidity?

Jon- I just don't know. Something weird and specific is going on here.

-Tim

Hop · #**660** 05/15/2007, 03:48 PM

Have you thought about running a small fan blowing on one of the pump motors to cool it. Just as a test, it may see if the heat is the problem as the humidity should remain constant. Just an idea

jnarowe · #**661** 05/15/2007, 03:52 PM

Ouch. Well, I am sure we will figure it out at some point.

jnarowe · #**662** 05/15/2007, 03:56 PM

I have considered that but haven't gotten around to trying it.

jnarowe · #**663** 05/15/2007, 09:19 PM

Tank room was more comfortable today, but then again, I was in a bathing suit.

Did some aquascaping...actually coral placement as I am trying to find them permanent homes. Found a lot of adolescent DIBS Turbo sp. and they will go into my next shipment.

I had to completely dismantle my once beautiful and large orange cap. It is just a mere shadow of its old self and I am bummed beyond belief.

I did find something interesting on it. A very sharp pointed tiny snail somewhat like a Pyramidellid snail. I was black and very tiny.

I also pulled out some of my recently perished Turbo sp. that even though they had died a while ago, where still extremely ripe. They reeked big time. I had assumed that shrimp would eat the dead snails but apparently not...I will try to get the rest out tomorrow.

I have a nuisance sponge that keeps growing over polyps. It seems to be very agressive actually but when I peel it off, sometimes the polyp is still OK.

jnarowe · #**664** 05/15/2007, 10:24 PM

I forgot to mention that I found my Ca at 475ppm last night and pulled my Ca reactor offline. The alk was also still high at about 11 dKh. So, this tells me that I just don't have enough coral mass using the calcium and alkalinity and I need to pare it back. I am a little stymied as to why this is an issue now, but was not for the last few months.

Unfortunately my pH is at 8.46 right now so that is making me a bit nervous. I think I will re-calibrate it since I did it recently and that was when the pH climbed up above 8.30. maybe I messed it up when I did it.

Also while messing around in the tank today I found several ghost white mini brittle stars. And they are fast!

gkarshens · #**665** 05/16/2007, 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jnarowe
I was black and very tiny.

That's funny!

jnarowe · #**666** 05/16/2007, 10:47 AM

oops. I am really not black.

Enderrea · #**667** 05/16/2007, 10:51 AM

who predicted 2011.5 again? and if it is true can I have the tank before you go?

jnarowe · #**668** 05/16/2007, 11:00 AM

you can have the house and the tank. and the wife and kid.

Enderrea · #**669** 05/16/2007, 11:02 AM

......are you kidding? i already have one of each...........that would be hell on earth!

jnarowe · #**670** 05/26/2007, 04:41 PM

Well guys...it's been a while since I have posted as life has gotten in the way of reef. Anyway, I am making a new batch of food today and my mind has been on the reef a bit. I did some tests and the alkalinity is down beow 10.0 dKh, with Ca at 435ppm so that is moving in the right direction.

I still have the kalk top-off offline while I wait for the dKh to get down to 9.0. I am noticing that the few pieces of montipora I have left do seem to be recovering so perhaps i won't lose them entirely. I sure do miss the purple polyps encrusting monti though. Hopefully it is thriving in Steve Weast's tank and I'll be able to get a piece back sometime.

I am still not in the frame of mind to take pics, but I hope to next week. I sure wish I had a better camera but that will have to wait a while too. I missed out on a great Nikon sale.

I have been experimenting with tank room temps. and Vortech temps. and what I have found is very interesting. When the tank room temp. is below 75F the pumps will operate at 3/4 to full power in a range of 125F to 135F. When the tank room temp goes above 75F, the pumps operate at 135F to 151F between 3/4 and full power. Please keep in mind that these are not internal pump temps. but the syrface temp. of the fins. It is a bit startling that the tank room temp. would have such a profound affect on the Vortechs that a one degree room temp change can amke a 10 - 12% difference in the pump temp.

In order to operate them at a safe temp. I am running them between 2/3 and 3/4 depending on the pump, and between 125F and 135F. This seems to be all I can get out of them without over-heating. I am keeping the tank room cooler, but cannot avoid spikes above 75F on hot days.

sherm71tank · #**671** 05/26/2007, 05:38 PM

Hey Jonathan glad you have the sweet spot figured out on the Vortechs.

On another note, I'm really looking forward to seeing this man take the title from the Ice Man later tonight!!!!

jnarowe · #**672** 05/26/2007, 08:23 PM

Bite me dude...Liddell is gonna whip his hiney...

sherm71tank · #**673** 05/27/2007, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sherm71tank
Hey Jonathan glad you have the sweet spot figured out on the Vortechs.

On another note, I'm really looking forward to seeing this man take the title from the Ice Man later tonight!!!!

Bax · #**674** 05/27/2007, 10:29 AM

Jonathan

That's so odd about your room temp effecting the pump that way. My tank is in my office and temp control is a challenge in this old industrial building. I keep my window AC set at 75 deg but with the MHs on, the room temp often climbs to 79 or 80 even. My VorTech has never shut off, not even once.

Glad you've found an apparent resolution.

jnarowe · #**675** 05/27/2007, 12:42 PM

Come on Sherman, the whole WORLD saw that was just a lucky punch!

Bax: I don't really consider that a resolution. And the Vortechs don't shut off because of the heat. I was having some issues with stalls after getting them back from Eco-Tech but in the last week I have only had one stall, so I think that may have worked itself out. But, mine are running very hot and I have to think that there is some combination of factors beyond the room temp. that are giving me these problems, and one idea that comes to mind is the tank wall thickness or even a slight bow. I don't see any bow in the tank walls but I may try putting a long straight edge on it and see if that exists.

I don't know if Eco-Tech has done any testing on bowed tank walls but it certainly could be a consideration. FWIW, there is definitely a major impact on pump temp. when the room temp. changes. I find that to be odd too, especially since Eco-Tech has stated that they have tested their pumps at temps higher than what my room gets too. Tim also told me that he found some corroded (sp?) deposits in one of the pumps they refurbed and that may be due to the salt air.

So I plod along slowly trying to figure this out with the help of Eco-Tech. At least they are very quiet now, which was a huge problem for so long. I just can't help but wonder if the reason for the rattling is still inherent in my tank (like the walls) and causing over-heating.