Why did my 2 new mandarins die?

[CyanoMagnet]

Hello
I would appreciate if any of you could chime in with any idea as to why my 2 mandarins , a blue and a green, died within 2 days of placing them in my tank.

I will describe the situation as well as I possibly can and from there you can draw your conclusions.

In my description you will see that my tank has a DSB and aproximately 100 pounds of liverock. I also have a 15 gallow hangon refugium with an additional DSB.

Both fish were plump with no visible latteral lines showing malnutrition.

I acclimated both fish very slowly adding 5ml every few minutes. The process took aproximately 1.5 hours.

After the acclimation, the fish went into the tank and immedately started picking on the rocks , both on opposite ends of the 75 gallon.

I noticed the blue one would "suck" on a are of the rock and what appeared to be smoke like sediment would expell from his gills (is this normal? at the time I assumed so).

The green one was more lethargic, but even so it picked at rocks and became more active through out the day.

By the end of the day, I could not see him anymore. He was hiding within the rocks somewhere. The blue one was still moving around picking on rocks.

The following day, I found the corpse of the green one in the front right corner of the tank. It had not been eaten (yet) and did not look to have anything wrong with him other than the fact that it was dead.

The day later the blue mandarin stopped eating. I saw him sitting in a spot, moving around occasionaly. That night I found his corpse in the same spot as the first one. Again no visible signs of anything wrong other than being dead and this time the hermits were working on making him dissapear.

There was absolutely no sign of any fish harrassing them (including each other).

The rest of my tank did not inhibit any signs of stress.

My fish are a Medium sized blue powder tang.

2 common cleaner wrasse (both whom eat Nori so I got lucky).

1 small maroon clown, 1 small hippo tang, 1 small coral beauty, and a firefish.

I have had some of these fish for a few years.

The point is theyre all doing very well.

My corals/shrooms/zoos/clams are also fine.

But the mandarins died in a hurry.

I called the store who told me their tanks were treated with copper-safe about 2-3 months prior, and that they did 15 gallon water changes every week (15 tanks all connected equating 300 gallons).

The fish had been in the store a few days prior to me purchasing them.

Also it should be known that I gave both the mandarins a 10 minute fresh water dip (could this be the cause of their demise?).

I use RO/DI water, and tests show everything in parameter.

I will be adding on to this post with a fresh new batch of test results shortly, but I dont think I will find anything.

If you have any idea on why my mandarins died please repply.

These are some of the most beautifull reef fish and would be a wonderfull addition to my tank. I just dont want any more to die. Am I doing something wrong?

Thank you RC. I can always count on you to help out in these situations.

[Ritten]

I thought mandarins don't tolerate copper treatment well? Anyone else have thoughts on this?

[Snowboarda42]

Also it should be known that I gave both the mandarins a 10 minute fresh water dip

WHY?!

They are SALT water fish. I'm guessing that has something to do with it.

[killagoby]

I would say the copper and fresh water dip would have something to do with it.

[Peter Eichler]

Originally posted by Ritten
I thought mandarins don't tolerate copper treatment well? Anyone else have thoughts on this?

Correct, in addition they do not tolerate freshwater dips very well either. I would imagine these factors at least played a part in their demise.

[s dubay]

Personally I have never had the heart to keep a fish in freshwater for more then 30 seconds..... let alone 10 mins, as this DOES stress them alot.
Could possibly be the copper a few years ago I treated a tank with coppersafe and within mins the mandarin starting freaking out,trying to jump out of the water.I took him out and put him in my reeftank but he died within a day after that.

[CyanoMagnet]

Fresh water dips for saltwater fish is generaly considered common practice.

However in this case, with the mandarins, Im not so sure.

I dip all my fish and always have without any problems.

If anyone has firsthand info on FW dips being harmfull to these mandarins please reply.



I have read they are copper sensitive, and I did not know beforehand that these fish were copper sensitive.

But it should be noted that the copper treatement occured 3 months prior, and that a 5% water change was made weekly.

If it was copper tho, why did they not die in the fishstore and waited a day after I got them?

[tibbs2]

Maybe its the 10 minute dip. A large salinity change like that could cause shock to the fish. Was the water you dipped the fish in equal to or greater in temperature than the water in the bag? A large change in temperature can also negatively affect the fish.

[CyanoMagnet]

Originally posted by Peter Eichler
Correct, in addition they do not tolerate freshwater dips very well either. I would imagine these factors at least played a part in their demise.

I appreciate your responses.

Where did you learn that they do not tolerate freshwater dips?

Could you possibly link me the article ?

Thanks very much.

[lpsluver]

Was the fresh water dip pH and temperature adjusted to the same levels as your main tank? The difference of 0.1 pH unit is a 10-fold pH difference. A big temperature difference can be detrimental as well. Sounds to be too quick for starvation. From what I've read 2 mandarins in a tank your size would slowly starve anyway. I would think that 1 to 2 days is not starvation but chemistry/environmental in nature.

[Ritten]

Sam, you obviously care very much about your fish and I'm sorry you lost the mandarins.

[CyanoMagnet]

Originally posted by tibbs2
Maybe its the 10 minute dip. A large salinity change like that could cause shock to the fish. Was the water you dipped the fish in equal to or greater in temperature than the water in the bag? A large change in temperature can also negatively affect the fish.

The PH (using baking soda) and temp were set accordingly. I follow the guidelines set forth in wetwebmedia for the freshwater dips.

10 minutes is not the extreme, it is the norm (5-10 minutes).

[fishyvet]

Just curious cyanomagnet, what were you hoping to eliminate with a FW dip and how did you decide that it needed to be done for 10 min?

[CyanoMagnet]

Originally posted by Ritten
Sam, you obviously care very much about your fish and I'm sorry you lost the mandarins.

Thanks for your support. I do, to the point where sometimes I wonder what Im doing with this tank at times like this.

[s dubay]

I would recomend dipping for 2-3 mins... MAX personally.FYI There are other products that do the same thing as a FW dip but they are just liquids you put in your SW holding tank.
Sorry to here about your loss though.I love mandarins!

[CyanoMagnet]

Originally posted by fishyvet
Just curious cyanomagnet, what were you hoping to eliminate with a FW dip and how did you decide that it needed to be done for 10 min?

I found out after the fact that these fish are crypto resistant (bodyslime) and that was my original target.

10 minutes is the number I got after research on wetwebmedia years ago and I have been doing 10 minute dips on new commers for a long time without any problems.

I watch for signs of obvious stress. If they show it I remove.

[s dubay]

If you are worried about cryptocarion and parasites you should invest in a UV sterelizer.
I battled ich for years untill I got one.Never had it again after that.
I can actually buy an obviously infected fish put him in my tank and within 2 weeks all signs of ich are gone.
It is a very usefull tool.

[CyanoMagnet]

Originally posted by lpsluver
Was the fresh water dip pH and temperature adjusted to the same levels as your main tank? The difference of 0.1 pH unit is a 10-fold pH difference. A big temperature difference can be detrimental as well. Sounds to be too quick for starvation. From what I've read 2 mandarins in a tank your size would slowly starve anyway. I would think that 1 to 2 days is not starvation but chemistry/environmental in nature.

Yes , I adjusted the PH as well as I could using the saslifert PH test kit.

I could have sworn both to be 8.2 .


Temp was identical.

The fish seemed fine active within hours of tank placement as well. Both behaving normaly.

I agree that it is nearly impossible they starved to death. Both were fully plump and had plenty of food crawling around in the tank, and refuge.

[rekn]

any fish with skin like theirs ( puffers and such) cant tolerate copper, hypo is the only way and its not even needed with mandarins. there isnt much that can servive their body slime poison

[CyanoMagnet]

Originally posted by s dubay
If you are worried about cryptocarion and parasites you should invest in a UV sterelizer.
I battled ich for years untill I got one.Never had it again after that.
I can actually buy an obviously infected fish put him in my tank and within 2 weeks all signs of ich are gone.
It is a very usefull tool.

I have been contemplating this for a time, but I have read mixed reports on uv sters.

I have tried everything I could possibly think of and the only thing that worked for me was garlic (and has for the past couple of years).

I dont think I could get away with putting a fully infected fish in the tank like you however so I FW dip them.

Your suggestion is appreciated however.

[lpsluver]

[i]Originally posted by s dubay
[B]If you are worried about cryptocarion and parasites you should invest in a UV sterelizer.
I battled ich for years untill I got one.Never had it again after that.
I can actually buy an obviously infected fish put him in my tank and within 2 weeks all signs of ich are gone.
It is a very usefull tool.

You've just been incredibly lucky. Crypt eggs can survive in a tank. UV may kills planktonic crypt but does nothing for the buggers on the fish that are replicating and reinoculting the tank.

Fresh water dips cause the surface-attached parasites to literally explode due to the osmotic difference between their body and the fresh water. It does little, if anything to the parasites in the gills though.

I never felt comfortable going beyong 5 minutes. 10 seems long to me. Maybe if I was dipping a large fish I would feel comfortable with 10.

[CyanoMagnet]

Originally posted by rekn
any fish with skin like theirs ( puffers and such) cant tolerate copper, hypo is the only way and its not even needed with mandarins. there isnt much that can servive their body slime poison

Aye friend. Thanks for the response.

I will not FW dip the next mandarin. Lets see how that works out.

So is this the consencus of the forums? Fresh water dip and Resedual copper treatement?

If so thank you all for taking time to respond.

[Peter Eichler]

Originally posted by CyanoMagnet
I appreciate your responses.

Where did you learn that they do not tolerate freshwater dips?

Could you possibly link me the article ?

Thanks very much.

This is from reefkeeping magazine.

"The recommended duration of the dip varies from author to author because different species of marine fish tolerate freshwater to different degrees. Generally speaking, any dip less than two minutes is useless. Many fish will easily tolerate five, ten, even fifteen minutes or more. The least tolerant fish are wrasses, lionfish, pufferfish, drumfish, hi-hats, jackknives, firefish and many of the scaleless fish as a rule (Calfo, pers. comm.). I also choose not to dip lionfish, foxfaces, or any other venomous fishes because I don't want a flying torpedo of spines to come shooting out of a dip bucket at me. A lionfish has stung me before, and it is not an experience I ever wish to relive.

Please only dip one fish in each bucket. If you must dip several fish, it is best to make up several smaller freshwater dips versus one large bucket, and always discard all dip water. I also would like to warn you about dipping fish that excrete toxins. There are several fish that give off toxins with their protective slime coat. Mandarins, boxfish, and the Six-line Grouper are a few. When in freshwater, they will naturally excrete more protective slime. There is a possibility that in the confines of a dip bucket, these fish could poison themselves or others, so be careful."

So you have a scaleless fish with a heavy mucus coating to begin with that also excretes toxins in this slime coating.

[CyanoMagnet]

Wow thanks so much. Very informitave. Hopefully this explains it.


I will keep you all updated on the next mandarin in this thread.

No more FW dips and the next one will not have had a copper dip.

[Jaroby]

i'd like to state that many mandarins have come through our holding tanks with copper and 95% do just fine. the other 1 in 20 can usually be attributed to poor shipping from the source and stress due to it.