Zoanthids are they toxic? - Page 10

TomRep · #**226** 10/16/2006, 10:26 PM

This is a little off topic, but you can indeed buy and keep poisonous snakes in your home if it is allowed in your town/county/state.
Tom

breedingroom · #**227** 10/17/2006, 09:35 AM

really?.............Well I guess you can buy guns too....Oh well.

KYyada · #**228** 03/02/2007, 11:32 PM

Claiming guns kill or cause crime is like saying pens and pencils cause misspelled words.

boxfishpooalot · #**229** 03/03/2007, 12:48 AM

Wow this thread scares me. I wonder if nail biters are at risk? Cause that would be me.

Are button polyps toxic too?

firefish2020 · #**230** 03/03/2007, 01:06 AM

Button polyps is another name for zoanthids so yes.

Thorny · #**231** 03/26/2007, 06:05 AM

So sorry to hear about your doggie :*(. That's awful. Ok, so I'm a few years late but a beginner to the saltwater hobby and zoas are my fav. On Nov 5 2006 friend asked "want to buy a saltwater tank?" 1st reaction - NO WAY!! She convinced me that if kept simple, they aren't that hard. I bought it, fully set up w/rock/skimmer/some mushrooms/feather dusters/other small critters. The tank was a pain, 35gal tall hex. Way too hard for me to handle. (ok so I'm 5'3

lol) I was totally facscinated by the whole big picture of saltwater aquariums as far as the scenery and amazing, beautiful creatures I could have and did have. She hooked me up with, whom I think is "THE BEST" reefer guy in our city. I came across another friend who was GIVING away a 55 gal tank, OHH just my luck. This would be much easier for me to handle. I took it, went to this reef store and immediately was convinced that I could do this. I was leary about the whole cycling process and running two tanks blah blah. I heard it takes weeks/months to cycle. This guy said what? months? weeks? we can get you up an running in 1 week. For under 2 grand, I have to say for a beginner I have a really nice tank already. Nothing nearly as beautiful as the "tanks of the month". I set the tank up 02-26-07, 03-06-07 1st water test--cherry. At that point, I was able to put all my old stuff in the new tank. 03-13-07 water test cherry......that day I took home boxes of corals and my cleaner crew. To this day, everything cherry. Nothing has died, old stuff is growing on new rocks, things that didnt do good in my other tank are amazing in this one. (sorry so long) Ok, so I trust this guy. He told me what to do, even gave written directions, I followed them and my tank is great. Could my tank still crash? My favorite items are the zoas. I have tons and get first pick on tuesday's when the shipment comes in. (sometimes I wait for the shipment) He handled them at the store, the other employees handle them without gloves, I was handling them daily until I got glue happy. Sometimes I call my daughter in to "stick her hand gently into the xenia and fill how soft, or feel how squishy this or that is. (ugh..yikes) I've never used gloves, I don't wash until I'm all done cleaning the tank or rearranging corals/mushrooms/rocks and feather dusters. I've never had a problem. I have never heard until this moment that they are toxic and dangerous. I plan on calling him this afternoon and checking this out, but I would hope to think that if he had any concerns he would have told me. He knows I'm a beginner. Shouldn't we be able to trust our LFS sales peeps? I see all the controversy here and I have to say it's really discouraging. It looks like we can't get a straight answer one way or the other. I work in an ER and got a hand full of surgical gloves from the charge nurse, but geez can we get some clarification here? Maybe the most toxic are the rarest and thats why there are no warnings? Maybe you can't even get them. Are some peeps just sensitive and thats why they had some reaction? Is there any new info on this subject?

Frick-n-Frags · #**232** 03/26/2007, 06:57 AM

hello, welcome to reefcentral. good info here.

My first reaction: this isn't a toy! it requires some education because there are several ways to get hurt with a reeftank.
your cavalier attitude is unnerving. you are a child-endangerer because that kid will put its fingers in its mouth.

regarding general ignorance , ignorant people get hurt. don't be ignorant. If you don't know your players, they can hurt you. If you know your players, you have hedged the odds far in your favor of not getting hurt. get educated. knowledge is power.

90% of LFS employees are clueless, also get the general consensus here before you make a move to verify even if the person seems knowledgeable.

funny, I was just thinking back to that swap, and my Kevin Cramer Pavona and how his dog died the next day after the swap. Why? yesterday was a swap, that's why.

.
(I still don't think that's why his dog died, but we will leave that dead dog lay)

best advice: Ask boatloads of questions here. then you will get an overview of opinions and any really wrong ones will be obvious, vs one LFS dude that can tell you anything they want to sell you more crap.

edit: start a new thread so it gets the attention it deserves instead of dragging this fossil up again.

Thorny · #**233** 03/26/2007, 07:12 AM

I'm not sure how to respond here. Toy? I didn't go out and spend all this money thinking I was getting a toy. I'm a single mom, I work full time and I go to school full time. I value my money and for once got something I have always wanted but too afraid. Blah........I'm not going to even try to defend myself here but umm I do have to respond to your "endangering children comment". My daughter is 16 going on 30, I'd hardly call her a child, more like young adult.........lol IGNORANT????? I can't stand judgemental crude remarks. I know now where I won't be asking my questions. Thanks

Icefire · #**234** 03/26/2007, 07:26 AM

http://www.cbwinfo.com/Biological/Toxins/Palytoxin.html

Quote:

Palytoxin was first isolated from the soft coral Palythoa toxica. Several species of Palythoa are used in aquariums, but do not produce the toxin. Originally, it was only found in a single tidal pool on the island of Maui in Hawaii and native Hawaiians used to coat spear points with a red seaweed from the pool. Toxin-containing corals appear to be randomly and sparingly distributed throughout the South Pacific and there is now a school of thought that suggests that the coral is simply concentrating the toxin made by a dinoflagellate (a small single-celled organism) called Ostreopis siamensis.

saltydude · #**235** 03/26/2007, 07:29 AM

Kevin, sorry about you loss and thank you because you may have saved peoples lives and their animals as well.

Runner · #**236** 03/26/2007, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Frick-n-Frags
edit: start a new thread so it gets the attention it deserves instead of dragging this fossil up again.

Feel free to do so. But this one should keep going as well. It serves as an effective general warning. And so many have tagged along by now than any post gets a good reading.

I think I may have to go out and get the issue of Coral Magazine that discusses this topic. I was looking to change to a better magazine on the hobby, anyway...

NanoCube-boy · #**237** 03/26/2007, 07:09 PM

Hey guys, I got algae covering my mean green zoanthids and how will i get rid of it? I can't just scrub it with a brush huh? It might upset and release toxin to the tank. What is the best way for me to get them algae off. Otherwise it cover the zoanthids, block lighting, and might die.

HBtank · #**238** 03/26/2007, 07:21 PM

I got a reminder that you can get stung by corals the other day. A small open wound got brushed by a hammer the other day and I sure felt it.

Made me more wary, expecially considering I have many zoos and the same thing could happen with them.

LoudProudNPunk · #**239** 03/27/2007, 01:04 AM

wow, thats horrible, im really sorry for you.

corbinwaltz · #**240** 03/27/2007, 02:00 AM

i was moving some of my zoo's a while back and my fingers had no feeling the rest of the day

NanoCube-boy · #**241** 03/28/2007, 01:46 AM

Corbinwaltz, Did you where gloves?

Icefire · #**242** 03/28/2007, 03:00 AM

Here's a response from Yuzuru Shimizu who made 2 study about Palytoxin:

I asked about toxicity and the relation between Paly and dinoflagelate Ostereopsis that produce palytoxin.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Stephane:
Don't worry. You won't be hurt with the zoanthus in aquarium. Even if
it is toxic, enough toxin will not come into your body. The toxicity
of Palythoa varies. I collected a large amount in Puerto Rico with no
ill effect. However, it is always a good practice to wear rubber
gloves, because many marine organisms are cause of allergic reactions.
As to Ostereopsis, it produces a small amount of palytoxin analogues,
but it is not known if they are the source of palytoxin in Palythoa.
Again, you have to grow thousands of liters to get visible amounts of
them. We grew one time thousand of liters, but found very little
toxins.

Yuzuru Shimizu, Ph.D., D. Pharm. Sci. (Hon.)
Omar-Youngken Distinguished Chair Emeritus of Natural Product Chemistry
Professor Emeritus of Biomedical & Pharmaceutical Sciences,
College of Pharmacy, University of Rhode Island

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

tkeracer619 · #**243** 03/28/2007, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Icefire
Here's a response from Yuzuru Shimizu who made 2 study about Palytoxin:

I asked about toxicity and the relation between Paly and dinoflagelate Ostereopsis that produce palytoxin.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Stephane:
Don't worry. You won't be hurt with the zoanthus in aquarium. Even if
it is toxic, enough toxin will not come into your body. The toxicity
of Palythoa varies. I collected a large amount in Puerto Rico with no
ill effect. However, it is always a good practice to wear rubber
gloves, because many marine organisms are cause of allergic reactions.
As to Ostereopsis, it produces a small amount of palytoxin analogues,
but it is not known if they are the source of palytoxin in Palythoa.
Again, you have to grow thousands of liters to get visible amounts of
them. We grew one time thousand of liters, but found very little
toxins.

Yuzuru Shimizu, Ph.D., D. Pharm. Sci. (Hon.)
Omar-Youngken Distinguished Chair Emeritus of Natural Product Chemistry
Professor Emeritus of Biomedical & Pharmaceutical Sciences,
College of Pharmacy, University of Rhode Island

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why do you keep posting that? Thousands of liters and Puerto Rico. Thats just a small part of the whole cookie. They found very little...... to me that means they found some even in a few thousand liters of water. How can one be so certain off this study that you wont get hurt. I think you should really look at who you take your advice from. Any scientist who speeks of something and says words that signal 100% (all, won't ...) from a small study then says they found minimal amounts in the same study, to me, falsifies any and all of his statements.

The second link in this thread. I suggest you read it.

http://www.cbwinfo.com/Biological/Toxins/Palytoxin.html

Icefire · #**244** 03/28/2007, 04:29 PM

theracer619 I posted that link. If you read it:

Source
Palytoxin was first isolated from the soft coral Palythoa toxica. Several species of Palythoa are used in aquariums, but do not produce the toxin. Originally, it was only found in a single tidal pool on the island of Maui in Hawaii and native Hawaiians used to coat spear points with a red seaweed from the pool. Toxin-containing corals appear to be randomly and sparingly distributed throughout the South Pacific and there is now a school of thought that suggests that the coral is simply concentrating the toxin made by a dinoflagellate (a small single-celled organism) called Ostreopis siamensis

cmb88 · #**245** 04/21/2007, 09:33 PM

firstly i have been following this thread since day one. I am so sorry fot yuor loss...I just wanted to put my thoughts down. I am a vet tech who has been in the field 8 yrs of animal emergencies. I have seen almost every intoxication in dogs that you can imagine...
IMO small dogs in particular are more suseptible to toxicity in what they eat. they are like little vacumes turn your back for a min and pow!! what did they eat?
I am also a molecular cellular biologist and i promise i will do more research and bring my zoos to the lab etc..I will let you know what i find..a lot of my peers travel around the world researching these types of corals etc..(lucky bastards lol)

I am not debating that there is a toxin, or that animals and some people (especially those with sensitive skin etc) can be harmed...but....

here we go...

When an owner comes into my hospital complaining of one syptom or what they think happened..99% of the time they either got into something else as well and or there are 4-5 other problems with their animal they were not aware of. This is why detailed histories are important.

My point is for all we know the dog was in the back yard ate rat bait 3 days before or did drink the water and got sick, or ate human food got salminela sp?, or went to the river three weeks ago ate a raw salmon and got toxicity (takes 2-3 weeks for symptoms)..or was older had renal failure to begin with, etc..was the dog vomiting? did he appear drunk? Walking around eyes blinking etc? What was the body temp?

I think we all need to be careful duhh wash your hands dont let kids or animals drink your tank water etc..but we do not need to become scared..I have a tank with all zoo's all kinds..I am a dirty girl who works in animal feces all day soo my cleanliness level is slightly altered lol, but i can tell you i have smoked after not washing my hands, sipped some water accidently siphoning, etc..If you get a rash etc..pull them out try again..

I am glad for all these threads etc..education is a good thing..lets just try to be level headed..

As a tech I wish i could pick your brain go through it all with you, and I wish the veterinarian would post some more info, but as a fellow animal lover and owner, I feel for your loss and hope you well!!

Thanks just my .02 cents!!

Longinus · #**246** 04/25/2007, 06:11 AM

Thanks for sharing this, I know it must have been hard to loose your dog.

If its any consolation, it looks as though by sharing your loss you are spurring others to prevent further loss, I know that I am going to be sure to keep my tanks and corals out of my dogs reach (Any animal that would eat a light bulb would assuredly eat a coral)

Tang Salad · #**247** 04/25/2007, 06:26 AM

Interesting thread everyone.

Quote:

Originally posted by Icefire

Source
Palytoxin was first isolated from the soft coral Palythoa toxica. Several species of Palythoa are used in aquariums, but do not produce the toxin.

How many species of Palythoa are there? And aren't more than "several" kept in aquariua?

It seems that both of these citations are underestimating the large variety of zoa/paly/proto in home aquaria.

navipro1 · #**248** 04/26/2007, 07:01 PM

I hear someone in Thailand poured hot water in a very large container to kill some Aiptasia and a small colony of green palys were effected by the hot water, the steam resulted from the hot water was somehow mixed and created fumes which put this guy in bed for 2 days. Thats paly toxin for ya.

surf406386 · #**249** 05/30/2007, 09:07 PM

I have seen a similair story on a German family who got sick after the owner of the tank decided to remove some Zoanthids from his tank. The (german) report is floating somewhere on the internet can't recall where I saw it.

NanoCube-boy · #**250** 05/30/2007, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by navipro1
I hear someone in Thailand poured hot water in a very large container to kill some Aiptasia and a small colony of green palys were effected by the hot water, the steam resulted from the hot water was somehow mixed and created fumes which put this guy in bed for 2 days. Thats paly toxin for ya.

dang...