MY DIY Coil Denitrator - Page 3

cristhiam · #51 02/15/2007, 01:02 PM

Afishianado: do you think this is a good approach, two 75' coils 1/4" OD, two inputs one output 24" high, or two 50' coils? My tank is a 125 with no sump so about 80-90G of total water volume, this is my stock (not planning on adding any more fish) I have a mixed reef with clams, sps, LPS and softies.
3 yellows tail damsels
cowfish,
saifing tang,
yellow watchman goby,
jawfish,
tail spot blennie,
purple pseudocromis,
starry blennie,
2 clowns,
1 black clown,
and sand perch goby

Thank you

Afishianado · #52 02/15/2007, 01:59 PM

I remember reading somewhere that 50' coils might be too short to remove enough O2. I can't remember any specifics though. I wish I could remember where I read this becasue there was a discussion about how much volume and surface area in the actual reactor chamber to match with the flow through it. If you are going to go with 2 coils then it might make sense to make 2 smaller denitrators rather than one large one, incase you have a problem or encounter some other reason to remove it. One output is probably ok if it is larger in size and again, as long as the reactor chamber volume is appropriate for the coils feeding it. What I mean is that if you used 2 coils then you should have double the reactor chamber/media volume.

I know it sounds like a copout to say "the ratio should be right" but also say " I can't tell you what the ratio is" Please understand that I researched the design of this thing maybe 2 years ago when I built it and settled on the dimensions. I had reasons for selecting the coil size/length vs reactor chamber size/length at that time but the exact reasons and figures escape me at this point.

thoughts...

The coil should be long enough to be sure that the O2 gets used before the coil ends. At the flow rates that work best for these types of devices a 1/4" tube that is 75' long works.

The reactor chamber volume should be sufficiently large to house enough denitrifying bacteria to remove all of the Nitrate that enters the device. I don't know how much volume that requires. If the chamber is bigger than this requirement then you will likely never know it or be able to say it is "x" bigger than it needs to be. But really...so what if this is the case? The device will work as you intended. As the device matures you will measure decreasing nitrate levels exiting the device and eventually you will measure 0 nitrate exiting the device. If the chamber is too small then you will still observe decreasing nitrate levels exiting the device as the device matures except that at some point they will stop decreasing. In this case the device will still work but it will take longer for the device to remove as much Nitrate. In either case it would still be possible to remove all nitrate from the system and in either case it would still be possible to never remove all nitrate form the system. It just depends on the capacity of your particular device to remove nitrate vs the capacity of your particular system to produce it.

Hope this helps without putting anyone to sleep. I know it almost did me...

EnderG60 · #53 02/18/2007, 07:25 PM

Afishianado, thanks for all the info. Just so happens that I have a 58g as well so I used your design as well(and added a few valves to release excess gas)

Im just about at the end of the full flow one week break in, and due to the number of bubbles im sucking in from the overflow ive decided to get an aqualifter pump instead of syphon from the overflow, which should arrive tomarrow. At which time I will cut the flow back to a fast drip as you said in your artical.

any updates from the thread starter?

cristhiam · #54 02/18/2007, 09:34 PM

I just finished mine, man I had a hard time putting the coils in, specially the second one. Well so far kind of good I glued it and everything is sealed but it seems that I had a small leak on the top cap, so I end up using silicone around the edge, hopefully it will hold, I have to wait until tomorrow for another test. I'm using a maxi jet but I have to slow it down it really pushes water good.

cristhiam · #55 02/19/2007, 03:46 PM

Question, what works the best, the water adjustment valve before going in to the denitrator or at the output to controll flow? at the output will create pressure insde the chamber/coils or by installing it before will only be pressure between the pump and the valve. I hope it makes sense

Afishianado · #56 02/19/2007, 03:56 PM

I would put it before the denitrator, but's that's just me. If it is before it and you spring a leakat the valve then you quickly leak water everywhere but the denitrator is unaffected. If it is after( on the output) and you spring a leak at the valve then water will flow through the denitrator quickly before leaking everywhere. Water flowing quickly through the denitrator is something you want to avoid once it is mature. Sure you could leak water from anywhere at any time but this discussion is just for the valve you asked about.

cristhiam · #57 02/19/2007, 04:38 PM

I think I'll go with before the denitrator, I don't want to put pressure on the denitrator, I don't think the quick connect will leak I'm using one for over a year with the water pressure at 45psi going into my ro/di unit.

What is the correct drip/flow setting to start with. Thanks for all your help.

Afishianado · #58 02/20/2007, 04:53 PM

ok...so to clarify(or further confuse) some things pleas eread this thread where a bunch of discussed this at length some time ago. There is alot of info here regardign dimensions and why to do certain things certain ways... the poster called "rsman" knows an awful lot about these things...

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...5&pagenumber=1

the other tang · #59 02/23/2007, 12:14 PM

I have a question about using skimmer water. What is the bacteria content of skimmer effluent compared to the tank water? I doubt there is good data on this, i'll ask another way. Is is safe to say the skimmer effluent is lower in bacteria then the water column? If so it would certainly effect the cycling, right? I want to use skimmer efflunt because I don't want food particles fish poop and so on going in, assing those seems like it would worl against the denitrification process.

cristhiam · #60 02/23/2007, 09:32 PM

I'm a dreaming or what, last week I tested the water with NUTRAFIN NO3 test kit and showed slightly pink that indicates is about 5ppm, I didn't trust this test kit thinking it could be higher reading not lower, so today almost a week later I got a salifert NO3 and reads less than 5ppm around 2ppm hard to look at it, test it with NUTRAFIN and reads 0. Can the denitror work that fast? 5 days working. also I do have a DSB

Afishianado · #61 02/23/2007, 09:57 PM

couple of things....I checked back in that old thread...looks like 50' coils will be ok with the 1/4" ID tubing, RSman even suggests using multiple 50' coils rather than lengthinging a single coil or adding more media. Too late for you now Cristhiam but I don't think it will harm anything. Got any pictures of your new unit? did you use my plans or some others? how did it work out? what would you do differently?

As far as skimmer effluent, I think it would be fine to use. The cleaner the water is entering the thign the less likely it will be to clog etc. but the more I think about it you should keep in mind that the skimmer effluent has probably the highest O2 level of any area in your system and the first step of the denitrator is to remove the O2...you would be putting your denitrator at a slight disadvantage from the start. How much? I don't know...You would be better off mixing the output of the denitrator with the skimmer effluent and placinf some kind of small sponge filter on the input of the denitrator.

I don't think the denitrator could work that fast....

the other tang · #62 02/26/2007, 11:44 AM

Makes sense, i was trying to get water without dissolved particles. I do agree with you it will not make the denitrators job easier, i'll find another way. Does anyone have a questimation of how many bioballs are needed in the canister? I am making this for a 40g. I am attempting to use 75' but might only have the patience to get 50' in. That part is a real pita. Should be worth it though.

Afishianado · #63 02/26/2007, 12:30 PM

I have been researching this more lately trying to find some verifiable information and I came up with this the other day..

from an excerpt of writings by Gary Deutshmann Sr

Basic Construction Notes for all functioning denitrators:
To make things as simple as possible, I will use the standard rate of one drop per second, 60 drops per minute as many denitrifiers are designed.
At this flow rate, the recommended time, converted to distance of travel for ease of calculation, for the system to function properly is 78 continuous feet of airtight enclosure. If the continuous distance is broken into cells the distance can be as little as 50 feet continuous, without the necessity of feeding. Any distance less than 50 feet, will require feeding.

So it seems like 50'-75' is acceptable. However, In the cited writing and in others that deal with the numbers aspects of this device they are using this coil for the entire process. There is no reaction chamber filled with media. The 78' coil of 1/4" tubing with a 1 drip per second flow rate performs the regular nitrification process that removes O2 as we have been discussing as well as the denitrification process that we use the bioball reaction chamber for, all in the same coil.

I think... that having a reaction chamber with bioballs (or some other media) would remove the NO3 produced by the system live rock or wetdry as well as the NO3 produced by the coil. Can anyone comment on this?

If the flow is too slow through a denitrator it will produce hydrogen sulfide. If you have too much media(or coil) would this this same thing happen? Could you have too much and cause problems this way? Can anyone comment on this?

the other tang · #64 02/26/2007, 02:12 PM

That part I can comment on, there of course is a point where you will have so much pressure drop you would have too little flow. Thus the hydrogen sulfide problem, I don't have my pressure drop calculator program to figure what that length would be. As a guestimation I'd say from my experience with these using a mj1200 the point of too low flow would likely be over 100' @ 1/4". Again I did no calculation to get this # this is based on using 1/4" X 100' on my first evolution, it did flow slooooowly. It did not drip, but not far from it.
Speaking of my first try, I used the 100" 1/4 id piece with no chamber in a loop back to the tank, it worked but only if you test the effluent against the tank. It would not decrease the tank nitrates to an acceptable level.

Afishianado · #65 02/26/2007, 02:25 PM

would you feel comfortable saying that all of the O2 was removed and Denitrification was ocurring, just not enough to eliminate your load? If yes, then could we infer that adding a chamber with more media in it after your 1st coil would increase it's abillity to denitrate the water? I think you were saying that the effluent NO3 was lower than the system NO3 but not by enough to effectively lower the overall system NO3 appreciably. Do you remember some ball park #'s

the other tang · #66 02/28/2007, 09:21 AM

You read it right, that is exactly what happened. I had 80ppm in the tank and was getting in the range of 20-40ppm out of the coil hose. Id say the o2 was removed because the ph was extremely low coming out. It was the right principal just severely undersized for 40g. I do believe the chamber is the missing piece that will make mine work, I am building one and will post results.

Afishianado · #67 02/28/2007, 10:17 AM

great information...

How long has your been running?

cristhiam · #68 02/28/2007, 06:57 PM

9 days with the denitrator working, I get 1ppm out of the denitrator and 1ppm from the tank, I know it's low but how long does it take to cycle the denitrator?

Afishianado · #69 02/28/2007, 07:41 PM

usually about a month.

the other tang · #70 03/01/2007, 12:53 PM

It ran for about a year, but I didn't do a test until it was a month old. So I don't know how long it took to cycle, I would assume it was less time than one with a chamber.

cristhiam · #71 03/30/2007, 07:56 AM

Hi, ok it's been running since Feb 19, and my nitrates are at 5ppm and 5ppm coming out of the denitrator, I don't think is working yet, I have it set to a constant drip if I slow it down to about 1 drop per second after a few days the pump looses pressure and lows way down. Not sure what't going on.

cristhiam · #72 03/30/2007, 08:22 AM

a video of the drip rate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEEmybTJRyo

EnderG60 · #73 03/30/2007, 08:24 AM

mine has been running for about 5 weeks now, and i have it dripping at about 3 drips a second. Any slower and i get nitrite out of the coil.

My nitrates are still running 20-30 according to dip strips and 5-10 according to the seachem test same with the effluent, and same as they were when I started. So last week I decided to try feeding it and mixed a cup of tank water with a teaspoon of sugar and let it get sucked into the reactor in hopes of kick starting it.

I am also using an aqua lifter pump to power it and around 2 weeks saw a drop in pressure with no change to the valve, I simply unplugged the pump let it sit for a few minutes and turned it back on and it was fine, so im guessing it was a bubble or something that just needed to shift.

Project continues so we shall see.

the other tang · #74 05/07/2007, 06:03 PM

Help me understand what I am seeing. I started my latest evolution of this a week ago and am getting the identical ph readings of 8.31 on both the effluent and the tank water. Why? I would think the lower or o2 depleted water to be a lower ph but it is not, do you guys see this too? This could be perfectly normal as i am running it wide open to cycle and it is moving too fast to become depleted.

the other tang · #75 05/29/2007, 03:14 PM

Is this thread still alive?