Cold/Temperate Water Reef - Page 5

DrBegalke · #**101** 10/23/2006, 12:54 PM

Seahorse from NY? That's pretty wild.

acroboy · #**102** 10/23/2006, 01:04 PM

They have been here for ever. There are millions of them

coldwater reef · #**103** 10/26/2006, 07:12 PM

40% water change today...the critters will like that

invincible569 · #**104** 11/09/2006, 06:34 AM

Steve, how long do you leave your lights on for during the day?

steveweast · #**105** 11/09/2006, 11:01 AM

About 10 hrs....but...they are just a few T-5s. Nothing in the tank is photosynthetic (except my kelp plant and eel grass) I run the lights opposite of my main tank so that I can work on my warm tank by day and my cold tank by night.

redwinger02 · #**106** 11/11/2006, 01:59 AM

Steve could you provide more of a detailed layout of your setup as far as equiptment? I am severelly thinking about the possibility of this but am in the intial planning/reasearch phase of this. The main problem I have found as you state is the availability of livestock. Which your link helps tremendously.

steveweast · #**107** 11/11/2006, 12:21 PM

The setup is very basic. It's just two tanks with a common sump. There's a 1/2hp chiller, a skimmer in the sump, a single return pump, a Tunze in each tank for water movement,a few T5's over each tank, and a sulfer NO3 reactor. Cold water tanks do bring a few challenges besides finding stock though....

1) sweating......this can be eliminated by using a thicker tank/sump acylic of at least 1/2" (my tanks and sump are 1")......don't use glass.

2) most of the animals are non photosynthetic........so heavy feedings are required but on the plus side....no lighting is required.

3) NO3......because of the heavy feedings, NO3 will build up. Cold water rocks are dense and provide no dentrification. NO3 needs to be delt with by means of frequent water changes or a NO3 reactor. I've noticed some critters (like corynactus) are negatively affected at a NO3 level above 15ppm.

4) your arm gets really cold when cleaning the tank.

redwinger02 · #**108** 11/12/2006, 09:00 PM

Thanks Steve. What about the cost of importing livestock? I would imagine that most of the cost associated with livestock would be in the shipping. I know you collect most of yours off of the puget sound but have also had some imported. Would you mind elaborating on roughly how much a order from where you order from would run?

steveweast · #**109** 11/12/2006, 10:34 PM

There is an outfit in Tasmania that supplies most of the public aquariums with temperate stock....but, they will sell to the public too. The cost really depends upon the items ordered....I'm mean you could have a box of $2 snails or a box of $500 fish. The shipping per box to LA runs I'd say around $100 per box (could be less if the order is large and there's a break from the airline).....then there's the domestic shipping which is around $75 per box (again dependant upon the volume).......then there's the agent's fee who accepts your shipment in LA, gets it through customs, and puts it on a domestic flight to you (lets say another $50 per box).

These are just ballpark averages....it really is only cost effective when you can attach your shipment with one going to a public aquarium in the USA......you could do your small shipment seperately; but, the shipping costs will turn that $100 boxfish into a $400 boxfish. By attaching your shipment to a larger shipment, your portion of the international shipping is way less since you're receiving a volume discount without having the volume. I've had a pending order with them for a few small things (maybe one box) for over six months now while awaiting a big order to be finalized that the Shedd aquarium is slowly putting together.

Lpabsolute · #**110** 11/13/2006, 05:53 PM

steveweast - Beautiful Tank/Pics

melsteve · #**111** 11/18/2006, 11:05 PM

I( am a tempertae fish collector in Australia and have most of the fish etc Steve has on our stock lists it would be good to see more tanks like this as they are very preety and if done right with temp etc most temperate animals are very hardy indeed.
Well done to some one doing their homework and giving the animals the right enviroment to thrive in
Regards Steve

oregonanenome · #**112** 11/22/2006, 11:05 PM

Steve W.- I saw the pics of your tank and I am very impressed. I'm from Eugene OR and am a teacher. I want to get a tidepool going in my classroom. Do you think tide organisms will survive in a non chilled system? If no, what would be a "sustainable temp.?" We can't really afford a 1000 dollar chiller in my middle school classroom. But we could make a diy chiller from a dorm fridge or something.

steveweast · #**113** 11/23/2006, 01:44 AM

You really need a chiller for Puget Sound critters. I wouldn't go above 55 F for their long....or even short....term health. PCI (in Woodburn) makes a good 1/2hp chiller for around $700 retail. Maybe they could sell to you at wholesale or even donate a chiller. They also rebuild chillers there too....maybe they have a rebuilt one that they could get to you cheap/free. I would contact the owner there . His name is Steve Weeks. I know....similar to my name....but not the same.

diving4 you · #**114** 11/23/2006, 06:31 PM

May I start by saying you have an impressive system. The pics. are incredible saying the least. I have a few ques. and i will keep them brief.
1. What temp. ranges do you consider cold/ temparate vs. tropical.
2. you mentioned that cold water species are less photosynthetic and require heavy feeding is nescesary, What do you use for feeding? (Anenomes,and invertibrates inperticular)
3.could you give me a brief descrip. of a tank that would be ideal for a tidel pool enviroment?
4. could you give me a brief description of your filtration system. (the system in the pic.)

************THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME*****************

steveweast · #**115** 11/24/2006, 12:26 AM

1) Tropical.......greater than 76

Temperate.....between.....65 to 75

Cold Less than 65

That's just my opinion though.....temperate and cold are used interchangeably it seems.... probably since so few colder hobbiest tanks are out there.

2) Feeding consists of mysis, plankton that I collect, scallops, clams, cyclopeeze, oyster eggs, and brine.

3) Tidepool....shallow tank kept at 55 F or below. Cold critters are very hardy except for anemones which don't like nitates above 15ppm. These tanks really have few requirements beyond temp.

4) Water flows from tank to sump....there are some bioballs in the overflow.....a skimmer is in the sump....one return pump returns water from the sump to the tank via the chiller. I have a single Tunze pump in each tank for circulation.....that's it. Oh, I recently hooked up a sulfer denitrator to help with nitrate control.

Dale Carlisle · #**116** 11/24/2006, 01:56 AM

Jumping back in...

I've been working on the system for a while and thought I'd share a bit. This system really has two themes: West coast tidal zone and Do it yourself. I've taken to refering to it as the "Hoboreef" (living by thrift and not tied to convention).

First I had to build the room

Before:

and after:

Positioning the 135G. display and 50G. sump (the white standpipe in the display was just used for test filling)

An early schematic of the fishroom:

and an updated version:

Dale Carlisle · #**117** 11/24/2006, 02:30 AM

For substrate I'm using a Target product called Blue Diamond 20-50 grit:

and for superduper lighting I'm going for an IKEA pendant with a screw in Coralife 50/50 CF:

I've built a DIY 5G. water bottle biofilter that operates solely via the syphon effect (no pumps). I never thought I'd say this but I need more bioballs!:

and a DIY 5G. water bottle skimmer:

Here's a schematic of the system:

and a shot of the back so far (no surge tanks yet). The submersible return pump and line are temporary and will be switched out for an in line model. I'm probably going to switch the sump itself as I want a narrower tank that will sit between the 2X4's (on the floor) to make use of the cooling effect of the concrete slab:

and the front:

Everything is being roughed in so I can get the system up and cycling and then I will go back and add the finishing touches and tweaks. I'm eliminating as many sources of heat input as possible but have mostly resigned myself to adding a chiller down the road. The tank has been cycling for two weeks now... Time to start collecting.

Finally, here's a little video of the tank at night. Very boring but a nice shimmer effect!

ckick here for video

steveweast · #**118** 11/24/2006, 10:06 AM

I like the look of the sand....could you tell me more about it ?

uberfugu · #**119** 11/24/2006, 10:17 AM

Nice work Dale.

Regarding the 5 gal biofilter, do you have a mechanism to stop
the siphon in case of a power outage?

norskfisk · #**120** 11/24/2006, 05:21 PM

Cool setup. I am thinking about setting up a native tank myself. North East Atlantic in my case. So I am looking forward to following this thread. Especially to hear you experiences with various critters.

Liked the skimmer! Is it working well?

When you live in a temperate area you typically have some species that are more adapted to cold water and some that are adapted to warmer water. So choosing the right ones is important if you don't have a chiller.

toonces · #**121** 11/25/2006, 09:59 PM

more info!

i'll be following this tank closely...

Dale Carlisle · #**122** 11/26/2006, 08:07 PM

Hi guys, sorry for the slow response.

Steve, the substrate is used for sandblasting. Here's a link:20-50 blue diamond abrasive grit

The skimmer works fine, I'll edit in a link to the DIY build (link is at the botom of the post).

The biofilter is one of my favorite new toys as it is sooooo basic.
1. Close the tee valve on the outlet pipe
2. Prime the system
3. Open the tee valve

The siphon effect kicks in and you have a perpetual motion machine. The key is to only sink the intake an inch or two below the surface of the display and to ensure your sump can hold that inch or two of water. As long as your return pump is pumping more than you're siphoning, all will be well. The one problem that can occur is if your return pump stops. Then your biofilter will continue siphoning the display till it breaks siphon (in my case 10-15G.'s). All I need now is 3 more G.'s of bioballs.

Dales DIY 5G. skimmer
Dales DIY 5G. biofilter

invincible569 · #**123** 11/26/2006, 08:18 PM

Dale, I like your approach, but I dont see how you can keep these corals without a chiller. Maybe I missed something you said.

Dale Carlisle · #**124** 11/26/2006, 09:12 PM

I only said I was going to try

I don't have a problem running a chiller, I just want to see if I can maintain my tank without one first. I want to do this for two reasons:

a.) The cost. This 135G. is just a precursor to a much bigger system in the future. I am concerned with the capital outlay for a chiller suitable for a 1000 - 2000G. tank and more importantly, the ongoing operational cost.

b.) Condensation issues. If I can run a tank at my ambient garage temps I can avoid most of the condensation issues Steve has eluded to.

It is also important to remember that this will be a temperate or tidal zone tank and not a true coldwater tank. I will be stocking with flora and fauna found in tidal pools/flats and mud bays where the temps vary depending on tidal and weather conditions.

I'm finding it all quite interesting as it is all one big learning curve!

steveweast · #**125** 11/26/2006, 11:07 PM

I'm really confused on that sand link.....even though it looks great, why are you using something that is Nickle slag (metal) containing 21.6% iron....3.19% Al......and 43.05% SiO2 ? and has the warning that "this product has a moderate to low toxicity to fish" ? Invertebrates, I'm sure, are even more sensitive than fish.

Cold water tanks generally have a tough time keeping the pH above 8.0. A CaCo3 based sand would be much better in adding a little buffering plus have no "moderate to low toxicity to fish".