Manmade Reef Rock

[BlackSumbel]

I asked some of the following on another forum, and April suggested I ask here as well. I'm interested in creating some of this strange, wonderful, aragocrete rock and wanted to see how everyone here felt about the material.

My basic questions:
Would you use it in your tanks? Do you use it? Do you like the idea but find it "really fugly" and prefer the more asthetically pleasing ocean-harvested stuff? What would make Aragocrete more appealing?

My ideas go like this:
Firstly, since (dwarf) seahorse keepers are fond of sterile setups, and yet suffer some of the asthetic drawbacks of this part of my mission was to create a "sterile", manmade, rock that contained absolutely no suprises that might pop out, bug-eyed and horrible, to eat their dwarf seahorses. This would be cultured in it's own little sterile world. I'd offer small packs of live, cultured, rock with macro-algaes, and possibly cleaner crews/some soft corals. All safe for dwarves.

Some of the "dwarf ideas" would be good for FOWLR tanks, such as color-fast, dyed, rock. In low-lighting conditions black rock might be more appealing than the sickly gray some predatory setups get.

Secondly, creating large peices of base rock, which interlock to be a bit more stable than stacked peices of real base rock. This would also include sculpted cavern rocks, pipe-covers, caves, rocks designed to cuddle your favourite giant clams...etc.

Lastly, bulk decor rock in fancy shapes, some with corals already attached.

Let me know what you think, y'all. I should have photos of some "rock in progress" (a test batch) after the weekend to show you what sort of shapes I have in mind.

[John_Auberry]

half of my rock is fake
[url]http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d110/john_auberry/100_0774.jpg[url]

[captbunzo]

Half his rock is fake...

[captbunzo]

Ok. Now for my real post. I will save the majority of the sales pitch to Travis.... But I will post a link...

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...&threadid=8079

And comment that I think the method used by Travis in that thread is awesome. In short, he uses a 3:1 (or so) ratio of ROCK SALT to CEMENT and ends up with very porous, beautiful rock. I have tried this and found the resultant rock to be very cool.

Ok Trav, let's here more.

[BlackSumbel]

Well, now... that's interesting. Never thought of that!

Incidentally, that did not link me to the thread I think you think id did... I think.

[indoreefer]

I looked also that is the wrong link.

[captbunzo]

Definately NOT the right thread.... Try this one...
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=807988

[dummyterminal]

I made fake rock in the past and it was great, Travis method is very inventive and works quite well. After reading the entire thread a few weeks ago, i decided to take the same route for 80% of my rock especially base rock. leaving the front facing rock mainly real live rock.

the thread is definatly worth the read for all DIY'ers

[Travis L. Stevens]

Thanks fo the flattery everyone In short, now that I've seen my rock in action, I have no idea why I would by real live rock from the ocean. If anything a couple pieces seeded from a few other people's tanks is good enough for me.

Originally posted by BlackSumbel
I asked some of the following on another forum, and April suggested I ask here as well. I'm interested in creating some of this strange, wonderful, aragocrete rock and wanted to see how everyone here felt about the material.

Agrocrete or not, this is a very good place to get local answers and quick responses

My basic questions:
Would you use it in your tanks? Do you use it? Do you like the idea but find it "really fugly" and prefer the more asthetically pleasing ocean-harvested stuff? What would make Aragocrete more appealing?

"Yes" to the first two questions. I love the idea because you can make it look however you want and over time, you can't tell it apart from the real thing. Time makes any DIY Rock more appealing. Time to make the stuff, time to let it cure, time to let it become live, time to let it get covered in life.

My ideas go like this:
Firstly, since (dwarf) seahorse keepers are fond of sterile setups, and yet suffer some of the asthetic drawbacks of this part of my mission was to create a "sterile", manmade, rock that contained absolutely no suprises that might pop out, bug-eyed and horrible, to eat their dwarf seahorses. This would be cultured in it's own little sterile world. I'd offer small packs of live, cultured, rock with macro-algaes, and possibly cleaner crews/some soft corals. All safe for dwarves.

Some of the "dwarf ideas" would be good for FOWLR tanks, such as color-fast, dyed, rock. In low-lighting conditions black rock might be more appealing than the sickly gray some predatory setups get.

Sounds good to me. It's a necessity for most specialized tanks to start out like that. But the introduction of any life brings in its own hazards. Hence why quarintining is so important.

Secondly, creating large peices of base rock, which interlock to be a bit more stable than stacked peices of real base rock. This would also include sculpted cavern rocks, pipe-covers, caves, rocks designed to cuddle your favourite giant clams...etc.

Lastly, bulk decor rock in fancy shapes, some with corals already attached.

Let me know what you think, y'all. I should have photos of some "rock in progress" (a test batch) after the weekend to show you what sort of shapes I have in mind.

Sounds like all good ideas. Many of those things already exist, but for a tremendous price. There are rock wall pieces offered by someone. I can't remember the vendor though.

For what it's worth here are a few pictures.

Here is my tank as of 3/1/06 on it's one year anniversary. It is about 85% DIY Rock. It has rock from three different batches: crushed oyster shell, cement, sand, noodles; crushed oyster shell, cement; and cement, rock salt. My new tank will be a Montipora Only tank in a 75g. The rock in that will be 90-95%+ DIY Rock of the Cement/Rock Salt that was linked earlier in this thread by Paul (captbunzo). My tank now looks completely different. But I will get updated pictures later.

[BlackSumbel]

The cost of the "ceramic" rock is part of why I wanted to do this. I'm an artist by profession and hobby, so sculpting those peices would be easy... however, I'm honestly saddened by the prices people charge for their art. Especially when coral and coraline algae are just going to cover the whole thing up in a few years anyway.

I'm also thrilled by the idea of minimal wild impact. The material is land-harvested or "waste" (in the case of oyster shells) anyway. With at-home culturing techniques, fragging, chemical additives and patience... you grow the same thing you can harvest from the wild. Only you've grown it -yourself- and those wild bits get to stay wild. Best of both worlds in my opinion.

This weekend I'll be picking up some cement, rock salt, crushed oyster and play sand... and making some oddments and bits to see how this whole mess works out for me.

[captbunzo]

Yep. Best tip I can give is to shape them in tubs of rock salt. Using this technique, I was able to get some very nice and really 3 dimensional rock.

[Travis L. Stevens]

Good point, Paul. The problem with the cement though is it is nearly impossible to free sculpt the rock. It is too liquidy in order for it to stand up. Now you can make general shapes and give it a little time to dry and then go back and sculpt a little bit on it. Or you can make many little pieces and cement those together.

[Youngsilver]

Or you can make many little pieces and cement those

Travis, have you tryed this? If you have then good deal, if not, it might not work work well, i remember from when my father and I did cement work that he called this a "cold joint" and only leads to cracking of the cement pads that is why there are gaps between different peices of cement on sidewalks, roads ect. But maybe bc this joint is onto a rough edge, not a smooth one, it might be successfull though. just something that just hit me while reading

[Serra]

I used Travis' "recipe" for rocks and sculpted the shapes I wanted in wet play sand that was in tubs. You can use wet sand to hold indented parts and to stack the cement. You can scrub of excess sand with a wire brush as soon as it has set up enough to handle.

This is very light weight and is sort of fragile. I am knocking off pieces of it when I dump out old water. I used a very dry mix so I could be more creative. We will just have to see how it holds up in a stacked wall.

The best part is getting the shapes you like. Easy to do arches.

[captbunzo]

Good points, Serra. I have had a lot of difficulty with strength as well. I think there are some fine points of construction that will help me with my next round.

First, I used a 3:1 mix of salt:cement for my last batch. While this is much stronger then my first batch (which was 5:1 (oops!)), it still doesn't have the strength I think is necessary. I probably did something wrong...but will still be trying a 2:1 and 1:1 ratio in my next mixes.

I am also considering add a TINY amount of crushed coral to serve as a bit of an aggregate....something for the cement to bond to and hold together. Maybe a 4:1 ratio of cement:crushed coral added in there. Hopefully that wouldn't be TOO sharp.

Second, I mixed my salt & cement, and then added water. I believe that this mixed a huge amount of dissolved salt directly into the cement. This was bad, methinks. For my next experiments, I plan to mix the cement and water, and THEN add salt. I think this should yield a much lower dissolvement of salt.

Third, I shaped my rocks in tubs of salt. While this was VERY convenient, I have heard from some that salt wicking water out of the rocks while initially curing will likely reduce the end strength. So next time, I think I will probably use wet sand instead. Sorry that I wasn't thinking and suggested salt above.

Fourth, as noted, I am planning on molding with wet sand next time. This should help strength during curing as well since cement is stronger when kept moist during curing.

And that's it. Anyone have any comments, suggestions, corrections?

[Serra]

I made my 2nd batch using a 3:1 ratio. Of course the only way to know which is better is to wait. Grrrrr. So much waiting in this hobby!

I agree that mixing the water and cement first is a good idea. Wish I had thought of it.

[Travis L. Stevens]

Originally posted by Youngsilver
Travis, have you tryed this? If you have then good deal, if not, it might not work work well, i remember from when my father and I did cement work that he called this a "cold joint" and only leads to cracking of the cement pads that is why there are gaps between different peices of cement on sidewalks, roads ect. But maybe bc this joint is onto a rough edge, not a smooth one, it might be successfull though. just something that just hit me while reading

I just recently added a few pieces together. I tossed them in the tub right after drying, so I didn't get to do any strength tests.

[pwhitby]

Travis,

Could you bring some pieces of your man made rock to the next meeting....wherever that would be?

Thanks,

PW

[Travis L. Stevens]

Sure. I don't see why not. Nothing I have at the moment is beautiful looking. It's just randomly shaped. No real thought or art went into it. I am about to start working serious sculptures though. Hence why I've been looking for really good pieces of various types of rock

Shameless Bump: If anyone has any dry/dead rock of Fiji, Tonga Branch, Tonga Plate, Kaleni, Martial Island, etc. give me a PM

[tgwinn]

Here is a question for ya... Would these rocks also work in freshwater setups? I know from reading the other thread that 95% of the salt disolves out, but I am curious if the remaining salt would cause an issue. I wouldn't think it would cause an issue in a setup such as african cichlids since they like a bit of salt in the water to make it a bit brackish...but I could definately be wrong. What do you guys think?

[Travis L. Stevens]

The remaining salt would not cause a problem. In fact, most freshwater tanks would enjoy the slight addition of salt. The largest problem with it would be the rocks bringing the pH up. It would take insane amounts of kuring* time to drop the pH to safely around 7.0

*The term kuring refers to the method of soaking in water to reduce the pH. Confusion was encountered in the previous thread about how people in the cement industry cure the rock for strength and how people in the aquarium industry cure the rock to drop the pH. Both cures are completely different, so the term Kure was adopted for that thread. (I still use cure as a term of dropping the pH because I'm an aquarist )

[tgwinn]

I understand the curing for the lower PH...actually, it wouldn't hurt a cichlid tank to have a bit higher PH as they need the PH up around 8.2 or so. So, in this case, adding a bit of crushed coral to the mix would actually help to buffer the water up to where it would need to be. In my old cichlid tank, all of my substrate was crushed coral and I also had texas holey rock in there and my PH stayed rock solid around 8.2-8.3...worked out perfectly.

[Travis L. Stevens]

If that's the case, then it would be no different than making it for a saltwater tank. For some reason, I was under the assumption that 7.0 and lower was prefered by cichlids. But I'm not much of a cichlid person. Technically though, you wouldn't need the crushed coral unless you really wanted it in there. Portland Cement is powdered limestone anyways.

[Serra]

Cichlids are a very diverse group of fish. Cichlids as in Discus require low soft water. Africans on the other hand need hardness and higher pH.

[tgwinn]

very true Serra....in this case I have always kept African mbuna which prefer the harder PH. So this would work out great for me being able to shape the rocks with caves and crevises since mbuna are "rock fish" and need caves for territory. Sooo...looks like I have a project for this weekend possibly.