How often do you recharge your DSB?

[Kaiser Tang]

I haven't added a detritivore kit to my tank lately and was wondering how often others add detritivores to their tank.

[dj synystr]

you hsould remove your dsb then you wont have to worry about recharging it.

[Kaiser Tang]

ahhhhh, the anti-dsb. I knew you would show sooner or later. Your avitar gave you away. My use of dsb is not the question or the debate. I will continue to wait for a respose to my oringinal question and not entertain the dsb/bb debate.

[Anemonebuff]

I do not "recharge" my DSB. Ocasionally I stir the sand a bit.

[Tat2demon]

I would really say it will be different with each tank. If you have a lot of sand predators then it could be quite often. If you dont have any theres a good chance your detrivores will just keep reproducing on its own.

[mhurley]

I probably should...but I have not. I've recharged it once since I put it up 4 years ago.

[RichConley]

what detrivores are you talking about? If there are predators that eat them, adding more istn going to help. THeyre just going to be eaten again.

[NewSchool04]

i try to add a cup of sand from a local reefers tank about every 6 to 9 months.

[RichConley]

Originally posted by NewSchool04
i try to add a cup of sand from a local reefers tank about every 6 to 9 months.

Why though? If animals dying off is a natural thing, his sand is going to be as dead as yours is.

I'm missing something here. I dont get the point.

[FelipeBastos]

Originally posted by dj synystr
you hsould remove your dsb then you wont have to worry about recharging it.

Using the same logic, why don't you remove all your fish so you won't have to worry about feeding any of them?

Might as well remove your water to, so you won't need to do water changes.

[NewSchool04]

Originally posted by RichConley
Why though? If animals dying off is a natural thing, his sand is going to be as dead as yours is.

I'm missing something here. I dont get the point.

It helps to replenish whatever you lose and increase the biodiversity of your sand. Different bacteria, different criters. I also try to add a new piece of LR on the same schedule.

[RichConley]

Originally posted by NewSchool04
It helps to replenish whatever you lose and increase the biodiversity of your sand. Different bacteria, different criters. I also try to add a new piece of LR on the same schedule.

Right, but if its stuff thats going to die off in your tank, then its going to die off in their tank, so its not coming in anyways. As to diversity, and bacteria, I really doubt there much difference between two tanks. YOu get the same bristleworms, etc.

I just kind of feel like, if its not multiplying and reproducing in your tank, its going to be gone in a few weeks anyways.

[Kaiser Tang]

I don't have sand bed predators, but the stuff does die off just as algae eaters do. You have to add new snails, crabs, etc. from time to time. They die off for whatever reason so you have to replenish. The same goes for your dsb critters. Adding worms, stars, pods, and beneficial bacteria to your dsb is needed in order to keep everything running smooth. I love my dsb. It does a great job for me, but just like all the equipment, if you don't maintain it, it will eventually break. You guys ever read Ron Shimek's book "Deep Sand Bed Secrets". A must read if you have a dsb. I recharge my dsb about once a year. Adding new live sand, new live rock, stars, worms, pods, and anthing else I can add to diversify. I just ordered my annual detritivore kit and I was just currious to see if others recharged their dsb and how often.

Originally posted by RichConley
what detrivores are you talking about? If there are predators that eat them, adding more istn going to help. THeyre just going to be eaten again.

[revclyburn]

If you are talking about adding more sand to your DSB, to add some life to it, that's ok, but not necessary. If you have an established tank and DSB, you don't have to "recharge" it. If you add anything, like live rock, it will add life to you dsb. If you add something like snails, worms etc, they too will add to you dsb biosphere. If you feel that there isn't enough life in your sand, then buy some things to beef it, see if your lfs has something to add more life to it. The sand from your friends tank may not have enough life it in to be beneficial.

edwin

[RichConley]

Originally posted by Kaiser Tang
I don't have sand bed predators, but the stuff does die off just as algae eaters do. You have to add new snails, crabs, etc. from time to time. They die off for whatever reason so you have to replenish. The same goes for your dsb critters. Adding worms, stars, pods, and beneficial bacteria to your dsb is needed in order to keep everything running smooth. I love my dsb. It does a great job for me, but just like all the equipment, if you don't maintain it, it will eventually break. You guys ever read Ron Shimek's book "Deep Sand Bed Secrets". A must read if you have a dsb. I recharge my dsb about once a year. Adding new live sand, new live rock, stars, worms, pods, and anthing else I can add to diversify. I just ordered my annual detritivore kit and I was just currious to see if others recharged their dsb and how often.

First, you're not going to get snails or crabs etc. from someone elses sand.

As far as worms, mini brittle stars, bacteria, pods, etc, these things all have pretty short life spans. If you're seeing them, theyre reproducing, and adding them to your tank is a waste of time. If they werent reproducing, you're NEED a recharge every couple of weeks.

Like I said, if these creatures die off in a normal sandbed, why do you think you're going to get them from someone else's bed? They should be dying off just like yours are.


AFAIC, anything that makes a reasonable dent in anything in the sandbed, is reproducing. If its not reproducing, chances are theres not enough of it that its going to make a difference, and its going ot die off no matter how many of it you add.

[Kaiser Tang]

ok

[Kaiser Tang]

Look, I wasn't asking for opinons on the use of a dsb or anybody's opinion whether a dsb needs to be recharged or not. Read the title of the post! I WAS ASKING HOW OFTEN YOU RECHARGE YOUR DSB!!!! I could care less about all the other crap. If I wanted opinions on the other stuff I would ask for it. I get tired of people thinking that they know it all and instead of answering someones question, they have to give their all mighty opinion on what they believe is the "only way". If you can't answer my question then go give you useless advice in some other thread! Maybe I need to start a thread "All who like to post unsolicited advice, post here!"

I've got to get another cup of coffee. You guys are killing me!

[MountainReef]

What kit did you buy and where did you get it? I try to recharge mine a little more often than once a year.

However I also wonder about the usefulness. Through the attrition of survival of the fittest. DSB critters fight for space in the DSB. Over time just a few or a single critter wins out and dominates. If that critter now controls the DSB, wouldn't it very quickly over run a cup or two of new life?

I still do recharge it because I am supposed to for what its worth.

[larryl]

As far as worms, mini brittle stars, bacteria, pods, etc, these things all have pretty short life spans. If you're seeing them, theyre reproducing, and adding them to your tank is a waste of time. If they werent reproducing, you're NEED a recharge every couple of weeks.

Like I said, if these creatures die off in a normal sandbed, why do you think you're going to get them from someone else's bed? They should be dying off just like yours are.

AFAIC, anything that makes a reasonable dent in anything in the sandbed, is reproducing. If its not reproducing, chances are theres not enough of it that its going to make a difference, and its going ot die off no matter how many of it you add.

This is an interesting discussion. I agree to all the above statements in general - I think it's true that in a system that is pretty stable, you'll eventually reach some sort of population equilibrium for each type of organism. Some critters will reach a stable population at some level that is not zero, but for other critters that stable population level might end up being zero.

I don't agree that just because some critter has died off in my sandbed, that it means it must also have died off in somebody else's sand bed - I had some Asterina stars a while back, now I can't find a single one, but I know lots of other tanks have large reproducing populations. However I do agree that if it died off in my tank, and I go and get some from someone else, then it most likely will die off in my tank again. But...

That is assuming things in my tank have not changed significantly, and that everything stays stable. Unfortunately it's hard for a lot of us to keep a reef really stable. So my concern is that over time, things happen that cause fluctuations in the system, and that can gradually reduce the biodiversity. Maybe one day the fan died and the temperature spiked, and that killed off (or severely damaged the population of) critter "A" (whether it's some type of bacteria or detrivore or whatever). Then some other time I overdosed kalk, and that killed off critter "B". And then since all the "B"s died, all the "C"s (who need "B" for a food source) die off. And so on...

My point is just that over time the biodiversity can only go down, unless you keep introducing new stuff, and because our tanks are constantly changing there is no reason to automatically assume that if a certain type of critter died off before, it will die off again if reintroduced.


Larry

[revclyburn]

I'm sorry if I was off on my reply about your DSB,

I did a quick search on the subject and here are a couple of articles I found:

http://www.reef-aquarium.net/resourc...trate/dsb.html

Here's one from Dr. Ron

http://www.ronshimek.com/Deep%20Sand%20Beds.htm

I hope one of these can shed some light on the whole matter.

RevClyburn

[Kaiser Tang]

All of these places I have ordered from before. All are great.

Inland Aquatics

Indo-Pacific Reef Farms

ebay

The ebay one is a little expensive on the shipping, but is still a great kit.

[RichConley]

Right larry, my point was more along the lines of what MOuntainReef said.

Kaiser, I Was answering your thread. "Never, because there is no need." I add new cleanup crew, although not very often, because mine dont die, because I dont run 75x what the tank needs (like most people, who have 1+ astreas per gallon)

Larry, you also have to look at the bad aspect of increased diversity. Every time you get a scoop of sand from someone else, you increase the chance of adding some critter to your sandbed that is bad. You also increase the chance of adding ick, and any sandborn pathogen.

My point on things being dead in other people's sandbed, is that it seemed to me like Kaiser was saying he was going to get stuff that doesnt readily breed in fishtanks by getting someone else's sand, or buying a new piece of live rock. Thats just not going to happen. You may get some novel hitchhiker like a chiton, but you're not going to get a population of anything that way.

[LBCBJ]

Kaiser Tang, I feel you. The unrelated and egotistical responses I always get has really turned me off from RC. If you can't specifically answer my question or anyone else's, then don't reply..keep your opinions and biases, etc. to yourself.

Anyway, Inland Aquatics sells good detrivore kits, I've been ordering from them for several years. I like to recharge mine every 6 months.

As far as those who "don't understand what you mean by recharge", the organism in our sandbed have relativley short lifespans. Often they don't readily reproduce in captivity, that is our tanks, just as most corals and fish do not. Therefore they need to be replenished. Could your fish survive without the addition of food? 99% of us do not have enough natural food production in our tanks for our fish to sustain themselves. But do we keep fish anyway? Yes
Well the same applies to DSB, it has to be sustained and recharged by "us" or it will cease to function, just like your fish would starve and guess what, no more fish.

"My point on things being dead in other people's sandbed, is that it seemed to me like Kaiser was saying he was going to get stuff that doesnt readily breed in fishtanks by getting someone else's sand, or buying a new piece of live rock. Thats just not going to happen. You may get some novel hitchhiker like a chiton, but you're not going to get a population of anything that way."

If you use believe this theory, then next time you set up a tank, use no live rock and no live sand. After all, LR will not establish a healty denitriying population in your tank, and there might be a chance that there is a hitchhiker. Tell me how it goes. My point on things being dead in other people's sandbed, is that it seemed to me like Kaiser was saying he was going to get stuff that doesnt readily breed in fishtanks by getting someone else's sand, or buying a new piece of live rock. Thats just not going to happen. You may get some novel hitchhiker like a chiton, but you're not going to get a population of anything that way.

Many tanks have huge populations of nitrifying bacteria, copepods, etc. in their sandbed, other's have none, their sandbed is dead. I thought this was a basic understanding

Enough has been said here

[RichConley]

Troll alert

Originally posted by LBCBJ


As far as those who "don't understand what you mean by recharge", the organism on our sandbed have relativley short lifespans. Often they don't reproduce in captivity, that is out tanks, just as most corals and fish do not. Therefore they need to be replenished. Could your fish survive without the addition of food? 99% of us do not have enough natural food production in our tanks for our fish to sustain themselves. But do we keep fish anyway?

Like I said, if theyre not reproducing in the tank, theyre not providing food for anything on any major level, you'd be just as well off adding a pinch of flakes to the tank.

Well the same applies to DSB, it has to be sustained and recharged by "us" or it will cease to function, just like your fish would starve and guess what, no more fish.

Mine hasnt ceased functioning. I've got plenty of life. Half these detrivore kits are stuff like bristleworms, mini stars, and stomatella. Who doesnt have bristleworms?

"My point on things being dead in other people's sandbed, is that it seemed to me like Kaiser was saying he was going to get stuff that doesnt readily breed in fishtanks by getting someone else's sand, or buying a new piece of live rock. Thats just not going to happen. You may get some novel hitchhiker like a chiton, but you're not going to get a population of anything that way."

If you use believe this theory, then next time you set up a tank, use no live rock and no live sand. After all, LR will not establish a healty denitriying population in your tank, and there might be a chance that there is a hitchhiker. Tell me how it goes.

what the hell are you talking about? Are you saying that all the bacteria in my tank is dead, and I can replenish it by adding another piece of rock? If your bacteria was dead, everything in the tank would be dead. Adding new rock to a tank that can't support bacteria would just kill the bacteria on the rock. Every tank I have ever seen has bacteria, copepods, etc. Adding new live rock doesnt change that in one bit.

Many tanks have huge populations of nitrifying bacteria, copepods, etc. in their sandbed, other's have none, their sandbed is dead. I thought this was a basic understanding

I have never seen, nor heard of, a reef tank that doesnt have nitrifying bacteria or copepods.

[NewSchool04]

I've had mine now running for 2 1/2 years following the Dr. Ron method. Seems to be working fine so I don't mess with it. I figure Dr. Ron knows more about DSB's than most, why not follow his advice.