Has Anyone Tried a "Rubble Bottom?"

[mr.wilson]

I get a lot of "live rubble" (1"dia.) from the bottom of live rock boxes. I use it in my refugiums. I find it to be a superior substrate to that of aragonite sand, as it allows for more sites for copepods, amphipods, serpulid worms and micro-plankton. Sand is more conducive as bacterial film sites, a position well covered by the display tank sand and rock surfaces.

My refugiums have a very large plenum, of sorts, (6" deep) with vertical rows of egg-crate to provide sites for benthic invertebrates (sponges, squirts, worms, pods, barnacles etc.). I place the rubble rock on egg-crate (above the plenum) without plastic screening, to allow the detritus from the Chaetomorpha culture to classify through to the lower plenum (benthic zone).

Motile and sessile invertebrates have a steady supply of detrital nutrients from the refugium above, slow flow rates, no light and adequate surface area in the rows of egg-crate. All sumps eventually populate with these benthic invertebrates, but the limiting factor is the lack of suitable sites for them to populate.

The upper "refuge zone" is only 5" deep. I find that only the first five inches of a refugia receive enough light for photosynthesis. The lower levels house old growth that slowly dissimilates and returns its' catch (phosphate, silicate, nitrate etc.) to the water column. The shallow depth allows me to quickly move water through the Chaeto, thus keeping it free from detritus. Rubble rock allows it to keep on truckin' to the lower benthic zone where it can be consumed.

The two levels (refuge & benthic) allow for compact, efficient naturalized zones. I call it the "Duplex System". The refuge zone (upper level) utilizes macro algae to assimilate and export nitrates, phosphates, and silicates. It also uses rubble and macro algae to provide adequate surface area and nutrients for natural food production (amphipods & copepods etc.). The benthic zone (lower level) fosters the growth of detrivores and water polishers. Detritus migrates from the display into the refuge, then into the benthic zone where it can be assimilated naturally by the resident fauna.

[Konadog]

Well, I finally was able to take a few (crappy) pictures of the rubble bottom tank at the Long Beach Aquarium of the Pacific.

[Paul B]

That is certainly rubbly

[lillibirdy]

Wow Konadog, that sure is interesting. Thanks for posting those pics. A bajillion little hiding places in that rubble. I don't think I am fond of the look of branches/sticks tho, prefer chunky irregular rubble piles for asthetics.

[lillibirdy]

Mr Wilson, BIG welcome to this thread!!! Thanks for the interesting post, and diagram! Can you post some pics of your tanks??

[mr.wilson]

Thanks Lillibirdy. Here are some pictures of current projects, in varius stages of development.

[Chicago]

is that tank floating... more pics please

[lillibirdy]

How deep is that floating tank? What a trip!

[mr.wilson]

Originally posted by lillibirdy
How deep is that floating tank? What a trip!

The dimensions are 72"L x 12"W@ctr x 28.5"H. The tank is elliptical with a bow on each side. It tapers down to about 3" wide at the end.

It is suspended by engineered aircraft cable. Stainless steel tubes are used to conceal the wires and plumbing. The one in the picture has a 400 gallon sump that is shared with a 72 gallon bow-front reef.

I don't want to hijack a good thread, so I posted some more pictures in my gallery.

Back to a related topic; Does anyone have a tank with a slab rock substrate? I've done some with colonial polyps and mushrooms in the past, but nothing recently. I found that they harboured detritus, and in the case of some polyps (palythoa & zoanthid) they generated a fair amount. Yellow polyps and tree polyps, on the other hand, were fairly clean and perhaps beneficial.

[BOBG]

I am currently living in China and the concepts here of fresh water and marine tanks go against what we believe to be the optimal setups. I've been here almost 5 years and just now decided to re-enter the reef world.

I have seen many tanks here with 2" gravel only with no UGF a powerhead with a foam filter and change water once a month using straight tap water (note: we don't even drink the water from the tap) iin fresh water tanks.

For marine tanks, they use coral rubble about 1/4" in diameter by 1/2" long pieces about 1" deep. For filtration they are using wet/ dry trickle filters. They are using 48" tubes usually one daylight and one 5000k tube. they do about (chinese just guess at everything) 20% every month. The only thing they add is fresh water top off from the tap and Specific gravity of 23 for water change, temp 29 centrigrade.

What's amazing is they have beautiful thriving tanks and inhabitants.

[BOBG]

I have photos of my newly Chinese purchased and setup 500 Liter tank. This tank is 2 weeks old and still cycling. Notice the diatom bloom?

[Tunguska]

Wow, I like that look for the Long Beach Aquarium of the Pacific rubble bottom. Imagine all the little places you could glue frags...

[Sm0kin]

I like the idea of a ugf with reverse flow. Now should I just Smash some of my live rock with a hammer outside or inside the house? Is it safe to make rubble this way? I like the look of the tank with the rubble that slopes up to the rock. Will having too much rubble and rock defeat the purpose of the reverse flow? What do you think would be a good flow for the ugf?

[Konadog]

Went thru my bins that have been cooking my rock and came up with a bucket of rubble that I'm going to use on the bottom of my tank.

[algaeguy]

Niiice...!

Scott

[Konadog]

Scott, you can't see most of it, but there is a lot of Tonga branch in the bottom of the bucket. It may look like a lot of rock, but I'm sure it will only cover 1/3 of the bottom once I start.

[algaeguy]

It may not initially cover it all, but it sure will look cool!

You have some neat shapes and there will be lots of foraging areas for fishes under those pieces. Should be eay to keep clean...and to mount some corals on, huh?

Can't wait to see it in the tank!

Scott

[Konadog]

Tank progress:

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=759531

[Don424]

Originally posted by Sm0kin
I like the idea of a ugf with reverse flow. Now should I just Smash some of my live rock with a hammer outside or inside the house? Is it safe to make rubble this way? I like the look of the tank with the rubble that slopes up to the rock. Will having too much rubble and rock defeat the purpose of the reverse flow? What do you think would be a good flow for the ugf?

I'm doing the reverse flow and it's working great. You can just smash what you have and make the rubble.........that's safe. My rubble is small in size and I have some crushed shell and coral mixed on one side of the tank. . I'm using the Penguin Reverse flow pump(2 of them) & I think they're rated at 175g/hr. Too much rock sitting on your plates could defeat the purpose and actually be detrimental but if you put the rubble on the plates first then the rock rock on top of the rubble you should be fine. Good luck.

[crrichey]

I have been really wanting to try something like this for a while, but could never afford to go larger than 20gallons.

[Chicago]

any new pics.. any thoughts on mixing some crush pucs shell from seafloor with rubble.

i siphoned out most of my fine sand except areas around the pillars of rock. need to awoid a fall ...

i think this will work best as the heavy flow caused the fine sand to lift off the bottom and cloud the tank a little. very noticeable with MH not with VHo

[Konadog]

Not quite done yet, but this is my YWG favorite place:

[J-Ross]

Great thread guys! I finally read through all of it yesterday, and boy my head is spinning with ideas.. Both for the tank I am starting now, and future ones What I am starting now, is a "tri-zonal" 29 gallon. The system suggests a bare bottom, in the exposed/filter feeder zones, and sand bed in the cryptic zone. Of course it also suggests that nothing be housed that will disturb the sand and possibly clog up the pores in the sponges. But I am also not liking the BB look, or being so severely limited in inhabitants... After having read, and digested this thread.. I am thinking that a rubble bottom over a thin layer of a coarser sand may be a solution.

I decided to try the "tri-zonal" idea because of the one tank, no external plumbing, naturally filtered way it is supposed to be. Would the rubble bottom, and it's critters rob those inhabitants of their food, defeating the purpose? Or might it help create a more diverse system? Possibly help with the supposed green water "problem" the tri-zonals have?

Of course no system should be designed without thought of the inhabitants, and with that in mind, let me give you an idea of what I plan (would like), though as well all know how plans go at times...

-Slower growing more exotic (to me at least ) SPS, LPS, and maybe some zoos, a few gorgonians, a flame scallop or two, sponges & sea squirts, sun polyps, a clam..
-Cleaner shrimp, 'pom-pom' crab, yellow filter feeding cucumber..

-perhaps a pistol shrimp/goby pair(would he dig in something like Tidal Marine Silver Shores Aragonite, if I made it deep enough in an area? Say under the front of the reef?)

For fish I had originally thought about trying to get some peaceful fish that were easier to breed, to see if any young were to get anywhere in the system on their own. (Gobies, Clowns, Cardinals) I could then try raising them later when I have time/space. The firefish is also an interesting idea. Or just going with a peacful mix, possibly with a wrasse suitable for this size tank, that is, if the retailers are correct with their listings.

I know this is not totally complete, but any masters of husbandry I welcome to chime in, especially on fish/detrivores for the rubble zone/bottom. If you feel it isn't appropriate for this thread, I ask you post to the thread of my tank here: My tri-zonal 29, plus fuge project I don't want to hijack this thread

--Jason

[barryhc]

I've got to tell you Jason, that is just the type of system I'm preparing to build, albeit I'm looking at 200 gal.. The animal choices are just right, and as far as the fauna working out the way you want, that is going to be your continuing experiment. Please keep us informed, it sounds great !

> Barry

[Whaledriver]

Well I am going to give this a try
Heres my setup so far.
30 gallon tank
undergravel filter plate
2 x Marineland reverse flow pumps at 175GPH each
heater
Red Sea Prism skimmer with the overflow intake(Trade for an old skimmer)
Regular aquarium hood with single flourescent light
Possably a hang on the back Penguin filter for extra flow and airiation of the water
3-5 inches of 1 inch rubble
One large rock that is very open to give something to look at and for the fish to hide and swim around

occupants
Manis shrimp
Sun Polyps