Fundamental Club questions???

[Coloaggie]

John,

I don't want to make a huge deal out of this, but I honestly felt like you were expecting me to offer a discount rather than asking me if I would like to participate. It has been quite awhile since that conversation, but I do remember even after hanging up the phone that you were not asking me if I would help out, but instead asking me what discount I would offer. We don't need to draw this out, but that is honestly how I feel about that situation.

Let me talk about why I chose not to participate. As many of you know I did a group buy for the club not so long ago. It started as a small thing that ended up a huge thing. Jeff and I put quite a bit of work into that (along with Generic who organized the whole thing). We actually lost money, but I was hoping to offset that by new customers. What actually happened was that my regular customers who are reef central members bought the cleanup crew and continued to shop at my store. Many of the others came and picked up their stuff and then went back to the LFS that they always went to before. What I am saying is that those discounted prices did not seem to keep the non regulars from becoming regular customers. My regular customers are already getting more than 10% off coral/fish/additives from my sales, so there was no great incentive for me to take part. I know this is kind of long and murky, but it's hard to explain. Having said all that, I think it is in the best interest of anyone to stick with a LFS that they trust. The hobby is built on relationships. From a business standpoint though, this does not seem to draw new customers.

Sometimes I feel like some members of the club just want to try to sqeeze the LFS for better prices because they think they can use the "buying power" of the club as a vice. How would you feel if your boss came to you one day and said "how about taking 8 bucks an hour instead of 10 because Joe over there across the street will take 8?" I become very frustrated because some of you don't compare apples to apples when you compare stores.

The whole point of my original post was that I want us as club members to stop this "what's in it for me" attitude and actually do something for the hobby. If we were more organized we could host valuable siminars. Did you know that there are schools who would love to have a tank in their classrooms but cannot afford it. We could volunteer to help with these things. I just feel like there is such selfishness coming from some members. Some just want to trade frags but could care less about educating others or helping the community. My personal view is that we are not put on this earth to do nothing for others. We are suppossed to be helping out.

There is huge animosity coming from CS. I don't understand it, but really, they need us alot more than we need them. Are they going to throw up this "we are going to leave" thing everytime they don't get their way?

This has been a great club. I just would like to see it be a much better club.

Y

[COreefer]

There is huge animosity coming from CS. I don't understand it, but really, they need us alot more than we need them. Are they going to throw up this "we are going to leave" thing everytime they don't get their way?

Nice pot shot kid...never have I or anyone else said "we are going to leave", hell, I think the question has been where are we to begin with? Saying we in CS need you in Denver more than you need us is ludicrous and serves as an example of the devicive mentality exhibited in this thread from top to bottom. If there is animosity it exists due to these exclusionary posts that want to make this a Denver/Fort Collins centric club, yet they want our buy into a statewide concept as well. These posts occur everytime certain people post. This crap is getting old...

The whole point of my original post was that I want us as club members to stop this "what's in it for me" attitude and actually do something for the hobby. If we were more organized we could host valuable siminars. Did you know that there are schools who would love to have a tank in their classrooms but cannot afford it. We could volunteer to help with these things. I just feel like there is such selfishness coming from some members. Some just want to trade frags but could care less about educating others or helping the community. My personal view is that we are not put on this earth to do nothing for others. We are suppossed to be helping out.

Using the "what's in it for me" line against the reef club is like the pot calling the kettle black...

This hobby is not cheap and for the most part, those of us in this hobby are not rich...BTW, did I mention that it is a hobby? Kids need books in their classrooms before fish tanks, this brand of idealism is admirable, but misguided. You don't think trading frags is helping out? This is a venue in which folks can exchange consceintious ideas and propagated marine life to help preserve our coral reefs. I can see how as a LFS owner you would feel as though there is a "what's in it for me" mentality; however, that is not the reality. Many of us are willing to help one another at a moments notice (maybe we serve our communities in other ways). I don't think it is the mission of this club to conduct direct community service, rather by serving the needs of one another we work to preserve our current environment.

[Coloaggie]

COReefer,

Just because you think something isn't so does not make it that way. My opinion is my own and I am entitled to it and I do think the club should be involved in direct community service. That does not mean everyone has to aggree or do it. It just meant I feel that way.

Of course kids need books. If we had it my way we wouldn't be paying for a stadium but would be giving teachers a raise, but that did not happen. That statement you made was irrelevent because we are not talking taking away books in lieu of a tank. We are talking about donating the tank, etc.

It's funny that the one with the most animosity struck out first with a post. I have a feeling you are the kid here, not me.

[COreefer]

And since you brought up a new subject I thought I would counter and give my own opinion. As far as animosity...I don't have any towards you, I simply wanted to point out earlier that you benefit from RMRC, so why not reciprocate without complaint? You didn't like it and felt compelled to lash out with your blatant pot shot.

Aren't the forums here for the purpose of educated discourse, or are they here to give a one sided view without any critical thinking applied? I'm still trying to figure this one out...

[reefnewbee]

Honestly, I do not think the local fish stores benefit half as much as everyone says they do. From what I have seen on these boards (ALL of the boards) I would say it is 50/50 AT BEST. Sure, you read a few atta boys and "hey I had a good experience at my LFS today", but the majority of what I read is "don't listen to the LFS", or, " you won't believe how much ich, or dead fish, or algae, or whatever I saw at this place or that place". You commented on "free advertisement" earlier COReefer, but from what I see and read, there is as much negative publicity(if not more) on these boards as there is positive. The fact is, with or without a "club" the LFS would do business, probably no more or no less. In terms of the LFS, I believe people are going to choose the one they give money to, by personal experience, and hopefully not heresay. To be honest I don't know how they do it...the overhead, the negativity, the fact that online is taking over, but I will tell you this, my biggest staples for a LFS is trust and integrity, bar none. In Yale's case, he is the only one who has offered any OPINIONS about the state of this club, and you know as well as I do EVERY LFS around here reads these boards. They would be silly not to, that being said, I just wish some people would re-evaluate the role that the LFS has in this great hobby, and if anyone wants my opinion on the role, please, feel free to shoot me a PM, no need to take this thread anymore off track...


Thanks for listening,


Shawn

[COreefer]

Shawn

I would tend to agree with you about LFS's in general; however, in QA's case I have not read one negative post or heard one negative comment regarding that shop. With all of the positive feedback he is getting (which is free advertising), he shouldn't complain about being approached as to how he will support RMRC. At least that is my opinion.

BTW, this thread got off track days ago...

[Mr.Lizard]

I have been a victim of the "Joe'll take $8" mentality several times, and I see it mostly as a result of the employer and their "what's in it for me" attitude. With employees, you DO get what you're willing to pay for unless the employee has simply lied about their qualifications. You can't buy oranges if you're expecting apples, even if they're cheaper. If fewer people would be willing to just take whatever some cheapo with no interest in anything but his/her pocketbook at every one else's expense tries to see if he can get away with, this country wouldn't be having a lot of the work problems we're having now. This is what enables a lot of the outsourcing overseas we see now- the domino effect in cost of living terms! Very sad.

It sounds like the entire group buy was handled incorrectly from the get-go if you didn't manage to at least break even, Coloaggie. Can the club members really be responsible for that and take the blame? I doubt the sour grapes attitude will be very helpful in recruiting additional customers, either. Personally, I'd rather visit a store where you feel like a friend and not just how you might impact their bottom line- even if I have to pay a little bit more! I may be cheap, but I'm definitely not easy...
Unfortunately, being a public entity, this means your business is purely based on your relationship with your customers- real or potential.
At least I don't have to think too hard when looking for places to spend my VERY hard-earned cash.... I go where they are thankful for my business and try to see what can be in it for BOTH of us instead of only what's in it for THEM. It's a hobby and I'll be damned if I'm not going to enjoy it from top to bottom. I'd just give it up if I couldn't.

[reefnewbee]

I don't think there is any blame on the club members, it just seems to me that he did not want to get (for lack of a bettter term) burned again. I saw first hand the work involved with that group buy, and yes there was some grattitude, but IMO not enough. Regardless of which store it is, there is alot of work and time involved with daily business, and going a little out of your way to help out the club is just extra. I am certain that Yale is willing to do alot for this club, but the fact is, he has to eat as well. I'm sure you understand that Mr. Lizard, as do I having been in your situation before.(All besides the point and ZERO disrespect intended).

I guess to sum up I think this club has the facet to do great things, for each other AND the community, like I said before, we need change for ADDITIONAL growth, not to revamp the club. Bringing CS and NC under an "umbrella" of sorts could only help everyone, as I see it. I don't mean to sound as though I am putting RMRC on a pedestal, I'm not, I just believe as a state-wide entity as well as individual groups would be a win/win.


Shawn

[pattylt]

Some personal observations:
1. I have not met anyone yet (I repeat, yet...) that has only a 'what is in for me" attitude. I am unbelievably impressed by how much sharing of time and knowledge and frags there is.
2. I hate how LFS's operate. Post your prices for everyone. I understand the concept of rewarding loyalty but it ticked the h*** out of me to learn that I would get a discount AFTER I spent the$1200.00+ to set up my tank. I want to pay the same price as everyone else including the newbie just starting out and usually having limited funds and the guys that are "butt buddies" with the owners. How to reward loyalty? Send them a coupon.
3. I am really sorry that Yale and John had a mis-communication. I am sure that is what is was and, of course, Yale has every right to accept or decline the card offer.
4. Some people may not want to be involved in the club if it becomes larger and includes guest speakers, etc. That may happen. Some people may join because it is getting larger and includes guest speakers. I have yet to read anyone saying that CS MUST do what Denver dictates or that FTC is taking over the boards, etc. People seem to be stating their opinions and someone else is assuming that this is a club decision... Read carefully what is being written before responding. and we all need each other. I think there is plenty of room in RMRC for CS to stay informal and FTC to be more formal and Denver to do what they decide is best for them. No group would prosper for long without the "RMRC" as the glue. We all need the RMRC to continue.
Once again, just some of my observations.
patty

[ojreef]

As stated above, It appears that their was a mis-communication of what was said about the discount cards.

In my rather harsh (First time I did that) I read and quoted both parties. If it had gone down exactly as it was quoted, my comments would be still valid. However, it doesn't appear that a third party was involved and what was posted may have not been exactly what was said.

I have the utmost respect for both John and Yale. I apoligize to both and hope they and the club will not hold it against me.

John, I'm pretty much aboard with the new club "PLAN" and hope to earn and keep your respect.

Yale, as a fellow club member, friend and patron of QA," I'll be back"

Again, sorry I stirred the pot and will now return to my quite ways.

[Coloaggie]

Originally posted by Mr.Lizard

It sounds like the entire group buy was handled incorrectly from the get-go if you didn't manage to at least break even, Coloaggie. Can the club members really be responsible for that and take the blame? I doubt the sour grapes attitude will be very helpful in recruiting additional customers, either. Personally, I'd rather visit a store where you feel like a friend and not just how you might impact their bottom line- even if I have to pay a little bit more! I may be cheap, but I'm definitely not easy...

Just to clarify...

There were no sour grapes about what happened with that order. It was not mishandled. Chris did a great job. It just got larger than we had thought it would. I ended up having to buy some of the stock from a different vendor at a higher price so that people would not have to wait for their livestock while the first vendor restocked. That was my decision and I do not hold ill will toward anyone from the club about it.

You probably should not comment on something you don't know anything about.

[Coloaggie]

Originally posted by pattylt
"butt buddies"

Patty,

I am sure you are a nice person, but I found this term offensive and do not think it is appropriate for the board.

[pattylt]

Coloaggie,
Sorry about the term. It is a term my son used for his best friends when they were in High School. I guess I should have just said close buddies. My bad.
patty

[Mr.Lizard]

I merely commented on what was apparently misinformation on your part....You should not criticize me for something that was, again, no one's fault but your own.

I say what I mean, call 'em as I see 'em, and mean what I say. For better or for worse, at least I'm honest and have integrity and strength of conviction behind my words. A rarity these days. And before anyone gets all oversensitive about what I've just said- GET OVER YOURSELF. I was referring to myself and no one else!

It still sounded like griping to me, even after a reread of the original post....even so, it's no biggie to me. Honestly I could care less.

To me, pattylt, "BB's" and 'close buddies' are different things- LOL I admit I was surprised to see it....got a good laugh out of it!- but maybe 'Butt Kissers' was more along the lines of what you meant. At least that's the impression I got- I still agree, though.
Missed all my nerve endings, too- LOL

[Deeparchae]

I have a questions that I'd everyone posting or lurking on this thread to ask themselves:

Is the dissension that is being generated here good for any iteration of RMRC that might happen?

While politics and power maneuvering are happening in this thread, the rest of the board is continuing to carry on with the positive side of RMRC, to whit, someone has too much livestock or equipment and makes it known to people who may want or need more stuff; Someone else is leaving thier tank for awhile and requests AND RECEIVES help in case of problems; a newbie, such as myself, asks a question and gets the benefit of the years of experience and learning represented by the members of this board.

I have been amazed by the willingness of the experienced members of this board to share, and the friendliness of people here. When a member had an item stolen by some lowlife, RMRC members banded together and replaced that item. This is the kind of board, club, and community with which I want to be involved, not a group of in-fighting politicos.

The RMRC Forum is one of the more active on Reef central: The size and success of RMRC dictate that it will change, but let's not let bickering and petty disagreements get in the way of something great.

[adams0816]

IMO. I appreciate everything the LFS's do for us & that they have a business to run, Just like everybody that's in this hobby for a while understands that its not a cheap hobby wether they are in he rmrc or not they we'll try to find stuff as cheap as they can & if they can get a discount they will take it, the LFS employees will do that once & a while for most people just to get return business. I know I don't expect it & I think we should support our LFS as much as possible to assure that they remain around for us (especially during emergency cases), & that as a club we need to devise a way to get the opinions from them to without insulting their ways of doing business because they are a business & they need to keep there doors open. I don't wish to alienate any of the LFS owners from the club because I think they are valuable assets to have for the club & that if we are to raise money for guest speakers that we should figure a way to get the funds without offending anybody. I do think that we do need to get organized, I don't know if anybody has been to other threads on this forum but we are one of the largest & that's a good thing. Honestly we need to voice our opinions so that we can make the rmrc better, for very little organization that we have now things run pretty smoothly. IMO. Hope I didn't offend anyone.

[Mr.Lizard]

At least there was the effort made to remain inoffensive, adams0816. I generally do the same. But sometimes the time comes to say something, that's all. That's what got me started in this thread- just adding to the opinions being exchanged and sought concerning everyone's ideas about the future of the club. Truly the subject here!

There are things to be done perhaps, but not merely for the sake of doing ANYTHING just for the sake of doing SOMETHING. It needs to be well considered and yet still flexible in order to accomodate all people interested in participation based on their individually chosen level of commitment rather than some elitist mandated club without concern for the true diversity which is currently the RMRC. No need to draw imaginary or even real lines between north, south, east, or west. It's ALL good- it's a HOBBY for crying out loud! Not a new political party or anything silly like that. Friendly exchange of ideas and sharing of knowledge whenever possible or present- Deeparchae hit it right on the head!
I extend any possible frags or share any of my experience with anyone who would like some freely, and will always continue to do so in the interest of good humor and spirit, as well as the joy of sharing. That's why I choose to be here, and anyone interested is more than welcome to any help or pieces/parts I might have to spare/offer. Drop me a PM ! And- You're very welcome! Glad to!

[adams0816]

I applaud you for being honest about your opinion Mr.Lizard & I really didnt see where you were out of line. Your point came across to me as no threat & I agree with your opinion on that part(IT'S A HOBBY) & defanetly keep the politics out of it.

[herefishyfishy2]

Gulp.......I stop reading the boards for awhile and sign on and see this kind of thing going on. I'm kinda ashamed to be honest.

Here is my random 2 cents................

How is everyone's organisms doing? Isn't that why you started keeping a reef tank?

All the jocky-ing and one-up manship I have read in the past 7 pages is just a joke and its mostly by just a few folks. I don't think there is anything wrong with a Northern club, Southern club, and Metro Area club. In fact, some of the things I have read from members in other regions tells me I'm not sure if I want to have them in the Metro club. People are freaking out about a plan that has not been fully released or introduced yet. Lets wait and see before we crucify it. It is odd that some folks now have these "official" titles......funny I do not remember a vote or anything.

I have learned a ton from people in this club.......crisc........johnmichael.......steve hurlock.........joe and heidi........kip......nate.........dave.......ric......and others I have probably forgot about. 1/2 the coral in my tank is from other members along with knowledge from experience that you just can't get anyplace else. It would be a shame for me personally to loose the cosy meetings at someone's home (I'm a fan of seeing how others are doing things), but if the club believes growth is needed then so be it. Guest speakers are nice too, but I don't believe they should be a cornerstone to the meetings (so the 3-5 per year idea sounds good to me) Many of the meetings I have been to (including the one I hosted) seem to always move towards the intermediate/advanced discussions. This needs to change if growth is what we want as most people who will join are newbies. This is an expensive hobby and lessons can be learned by the newbies from the experienced folks. It seems as though a very small amount of people are speaking for the masses here, not good.

Dues..........ahhhh....the buzzword lately. There is a time and a place for it and I will not comment on it until I see the plan and if it has been well thought out.

For my Wife and I the meetings always had a social alure for us. I enjoyed chatting with people and getting to know the members better.I did not always go just for the reef related content (I know that is hard to believe) and huge meeting halls and whatnot tend to not lend themselves to that.


One last tid-bit would be a suggestion for some type of meeting to discuss these topics. I find discussions on the web are a lot like road rage.....most people are a lot tougher behind a wheel or keyboard than they really are. A face to face club meeting where these things can be discussed about the direction things are heading statewide would probably yield a lot less whining/bickering and a lot more action/results.

[SPasse]

Hi All,

I just finished reading this thread, from stem to stern… Quite a lot to digest.

As one of the founding members, I got to see it grow from a hand full of members, to what it is today, one of the most active clubs in the US.

As a Denver Native, I thought that was pretty amazing, especially as my current exile to Texas, I thought would expose me to a much bigger “market� the DFW Metroplex.

I think Ktani sums up exactly what is going on with trying to keep a club the size of the RMRC together, given the geographical realities of a club that is trying to span most of the Front Range.

Alas, If I still lived in Denver, I would jump at the chance to (again) become actively involved in the RMRC. I had a similar experience helping to grow a company that I helped start 20 years ago from a hand full of people to it’s present size (>$350M) I dearly miss the days when meetings and structure was much simpler… but Like something General Eisenhower said to Jimmy Doolittle. You can either fly plains or lead thousands of men…

But from “Deep in the heart of Texas� I can only maybe offer some advise/perspective, while trying to not create a conflict of interest with my moderator duties at Reef Central.

A great example of a system that works, based on a chapter structure is motorcycle clubs. Take the Goldwing Road Riders Association; many thousands of members with each chapter having wide latitude to have a unique character. As a touring MC rider, I have “dropped in� on various chapters and every one was unique.

Finally, Play nice everyone because I have also seen clubs explode because of infighting and ego trips. Conversely it is nearly impossible to keep any “organization� together over a certain “membership size� with out some fairly delineated structure.

The moderators at Reef Central tend to give more latitude to “strong opinions� in the reef club forums. Let’s not let this discussion degenerate to the point where I have to put on my moderator hat.

Best wishes everyone…

Regards,

Scott

[ktani]

Thanks Scott.

Extreme Southern Chapter of the RMRC?

Kip

[Misfit6669]

Nice one Kip
ESCRMRC has a nice ring to it.

[SPasse]

Ktani,

I was just up in Denver last week on a motorcycle tour.

Denver/Colorado is where my heart will always be.

Regards,

Scott

[ktani]

Scott,

next time you should tell us and we can get a group and have a get together. Would be interested to hear your thoughts as to the direction of reefing and the hobby since you are probably able to see it on a much broader perspective than we are able to here.

I feel fortunate to get guidance from Anthony Calfo. His tutelage and counsel are not only wise but really allow me and subsequently us to see some of he things going on throughout the world.

It is human nature to resist change, and sometimes change is good, but not always. Getting a counsel of advisors together has always been a wise thought to make sure the plans are not from one person, but make sense across a broad spectrum for the betterment of the club.

We would be pleased to have our extreme southern chapter as part of the counsel. At least if you are open to letting us bug you. :-)

Kip

[Mr.Lizard]

Uh- oh-
Not only a founding member of RMRC, but now you've posted in the thread, too- and you're a moderator on RC....Sounds like it's a bit too late to avoid the nibbling conflict of interest! LOL
I'm a former patch holder in an M/C club....sometimes the organization works, and sometimes not....(man- that's FUNNY from an insider's view- can't really explain it to 'civilians'- LMAO!) But then we were different than the 'riding club' riders out there-
Info here for those who are curious-
http://home.earthlink.net/~rcvsmc-edu/index.html
Yet another of my reasons behind keeping things simple. (for a change!)
Good to hear from ya....sorry about the Texas thing- I was there during my Army days. Good and bad- Too bad your in the DFW area, for sure! There are better parts of Texas !