American Recirculating Needlewheel ROCKS!

[Todd March]

H&S and Deltec skimmers are two recirculating needlwheels that have gotten a lot of attention here on RC. And justly so for the recirculating design is vastly superior to the single pump design that combines bubble production and feeding in one pump (insump ER's for example)...

But here are some pictures of my recirculating external (and American made) Euroreef and how it amazed me... The following pictures were taken just 2 HOURS (honestly!) after adding 126 lbs. of uncured Marshall Island live rock to my tank. I am skimming very wet, and the dry frothy foam is forming so fast that the collection cup is 2/3 full in just 2 hours... I will have to set my alarm clock in the middle of the night to empty the cup, as well as turn the skimmer off when I go to work—because at this rate it will overflow the cup in around 3 hours... the foam production is making the lid raise up and down as the air vents out, and the foam is even spewing out the air vent holes themselves...!

Note the opaque white bubbles in the skimmer column—this is the secret to recirculating needlewheels—the seperate feed pump keeps the bubbles in suspension (dwell time?) sooo much longer than single pump designs...

I just can't imagine any needlewheel skimmer being more effective, and if it was, you would be stuck having to empty the cup every hour while curing LR...!

Remember these pics were taken only 2 hours after adding LR...!!

[poon415]

Hello Todd, you really know your tech stuff.

Is there any modifications that need to be made, or is it exchange, plug, and play? and how much do they run? Got Pics.

[Todd March]

The external ER's are certainly more than the insump models. And I think the price hike is a little unjustified on ER's part, as it's only a gate valve exit, true unions for the needlewheel pump, and a Uniseal'd hole for the feedline that makes it different from insump models (you even have to provide your own feed pump or optionally, gravity feed it)... With that said, ER is now making the recirculating models in the smaller ES/CS 6 series, so they are becoming more affordable overall...

The plumbing for an external skimmer is a little more work and planning, but it's no big deal; my skimmer return line actually "pierces" through a Uniseal, high on the side wall of my sump. I utilized a true union on the exit line so that I can disconnect the skimmer easily for cleaning and maintenance (see the pictures in my above post)...

My ONLY gripe with this skimmer is that it's needlewheel pump, a Sedra 5000, is definitely on the louder side... I used to a run a CS6-2+ insump model with a Sedra 5000 as well, and while it too was loud, when you run this pump externally, the noise level is even higher...It's not outrageously loud, but by far it's the loudest thing in my system...

[dav1d84]

That's uncured rock

Really though, any skimmer can produce mass amounts of skimmate on uncured rock. My CPR bakpak skimmer made half a gallon of dark skimmate on 15lbs of uncured figi rock in a few hours.

[cecilturtle]

Originally posted by dav1d84
That's uncured rock

Really though, any skimmer can produce mass amounts of skimmate on uncured rock. My CPR bakpak skimmer made half a gallon of dark skimmate on 15lbs of uncured figi rock in a few hours.

Dude, while the Bak Pak is a good skimmer for a nano, I doubt it would pull 1/2 a gallon of skimmate in a week even if you added some of you own detritus in there...ha! Stop raining on the guys thread.

[Todd March]

I cured 30 lbs. of MI LR in my 20g nano (pics in my gallery) with a Bak Pak a couple of years ago, and it a was decent little skimmer... But, dav1d84, it took a day or two to fill it's small little cup—it was nothing like this...!

[poon415]

Where can I get info on this for in the sump Euroreef?

[Todd March]

Here is ER's WWW home:

http://euro-reef.com/Home.htm

[dav1d84]

Dude, while the Bak Pak is a good skimmer for a nano, I doubt it would pull 1/2 a gallon of skimmate in a week even if you added some of you own oudetritus in there...ha! Stop raining on the guys thread.

Dude yourself. It's uncured rock, the thing has been warped in news paper for atleast 48hours fresh from the ocean. It will make the skimmer foam like crazy. Any skimmer. Look at the skimmers at the stores on there rock tanks, they pull out 5gallon buckets. Don't beleave me? With out live rock my cpr in my 20gallon takes atleast 2weeks to fill up. When it is full, I have done this before, pour it back in the tank, and I get atleast 75% of the skimmate back in the cup within 20minutes. In a 20gallon tank, what skimmer you use wont have to do alot abut how much skimmate you get, there just isn't enough crap in there to make a difference.

[rufio173]

I agree with both dav and todd. It is uncured live rock and that is some dirty, dirty stuff and most decent skimmers will pull out a considerable amount of muck... however, recirculating needlewheels are very good skimmers and I doubt the backpack could stand up for long against a recirculating needlewheel especially under lower tolerances of organics.

Peace,
John H.

[cecilturtle]

Sorry if I came on strong dav1d84, I just felt good reading about an American made product. Seems here lately the German's are batting a 1000.

Anyway, as far as a Bak Pak, I have never had mine skim that much, even when I had 30lbs curing in a 10gal. What it did do at first, was overflow. Todd's picture shows nice bubble size and good foam. My EV skimmer would have overflowed like crazy as well.

[dav1d84]

however, recirculating needlewheels are very good skimmers and I doubt the backpack could stand up for long against a recirculating needlewheel especially under lower tolerances of organics.

I am in no way doubting that Euroreef skimmers will not hugely outperform cpr bakpak's. I was just trying to make a point that any skimmer will make large amounts of skimmate with uncured rock.

I just felt good reading about an American made product. Seems here lately the German's are batting a 1000.

You have to take price into consideration too. With the same amount of money in a European skimmer, you could get the next level with an American skimmer. Which I'm sure the "next" level one will do well against the European lower model.

[rufio173]

Hey Todd March,

How's that skimmate smell?

Peace,
John H.

[spanker]

I gotta agree. You throw a bunch of uncured rock in a tub with an airstone and you're gonna get a fat froth on the top. It doesn't take much. I've seen a Euroreef next to a H&S that was rated for the same number of gallons, and the H&S was pulling out at least 3 times as much as the Euro Reef. Add to this, the energy savings of using lower wattage pump over the pig of a pump sedra/sen. I have a Euro Reef. I loved the thing. It's a quality product. It's just not the best as we all thought before. H&S and Deltec have vastly better products (IMO) than Euro Reef. The problem was, H&S didn't have a US distributor (They do now), and Deltec was incredibly expensive compared to Euro Reef (They aren't anymore). Bubble King is the only one charging incredible sums of money for their skimmers, and people like them, and buy them. Theres nothing wrong with that. All things being equal tho, with the little price difference there is between ER, Deltec, and H&S, my money is on H&S. I've seen it outperform a ER.

[RedEyeReef]

who distributes the H&S?

[s13silvia]

click on the sponsors button at the top and look for tropical paradise

[Todd March]

All things being equal tho, with the little price difference there is between ER, Deltec, and H&S, my money is on H&S. I've seen it outperform a ER.

Were they comparable designs, Spanker? Recirculating to recirculating? I have seen people try to match a recirculating two pump H&S to a single pump in-sump ER, which just isn't fair... Also, following the manufacturers ratings isn't the best idea—skimmer size is fair enough; 8" diameter tube by 24"ish tall for example is a much more accurate comparison.

Also Deltec is still considerably more expensive than the rest. The model that compares to the ER 8 series external, and the H&S A200-1060, is the Deltec AP850 that lists here in the US for $916.00. The H&S is also more expensive than the ER for that matter...

[bernie lyons]

Well, i agree with spanker that the german pinwheels "EASILY'
outperform their american counterparts !
I have literally seen a deltec compared to a euro reef side by side and the german skimmer 'trounced" the euro reef for skimmate production .
Both were comparatively sized up !
The H&S designs are at least the equal of the Deltec's at a more affordable price !
Cheers
bernie lyons

[moonpod]

I dunno Todd. A Deltec 702 is about 1600 pretty much delivered. The comparable ER is 1350+ shipping. It's a price difference, but once you start looking at large skimmers, it's not "huge".

The APF 600 goes for 800, the ER for pretty much the exact same price.

[Todd March]

You'd know more about the larger skimmers, Chuck, with your recent Deltec purchase, but as for the the smaller Deltec APF 600, I know the recirculating Euroreef CS6-2-RC you would compare it to is cheaper than $800... And mind you, the Deltec still only comes with a 5" diameter tube versus ER's 6" tube...

Also the AquaBee 2001 the APF 600 comes with draws 400lph of air, while the Sedra 5000 draws 450lph, in recirculating mode, per Jeff Macare and his tests at EuroReef...

Recirculating ER's are just taking off (thanks in part to ER stopping the name "external" and using "recirculating" instead), and have been rare in the past so I very much doubt that posters such as Bernie Lyons have seen a RECIRCULATING Euroreef side by side with a recirculating Deltec or H&S... Then of course you have to factor in the feed amount being pumped into the skimmers as well (fast flow versus slower flow and longer contact time)...

With comparable pumps, on comparable diameter skimmers, I would not at all be surprised to see the German skimmers outperform ER's; but I don't think it would be really dramatic. I do think pitting a ER with a Sedra 5000 (450lph) against a German skimmer with a Eheim 1260 (800lph) isn't fair, and of course the Eheim powered German skimmer is going to trounce the ER when it is injecting almost twice the amount of air...

[moonpod]

Who knows Todd. That's why I think Dave's comparo will be interesting. The things that sort of need to be "controlled" though are skimmer size.

[Todd March]

Yeah, I totally agree, Chuck... I am looking forward to the show down at Dave's... Really interested in seeing the BK and it's legendary foam...

[golfish]

maybe they should change the name to Amer Reef

[crab0000]

Nice skimmer Todd, I get the same kind of foam out of my in sump ER with the gate valve installed. I think the gate valve makes all the difference. Here is a pic from my ES8-2, if you look around the top edge of the cup you will notice the foam on the outside, this is where the skimmer pushed the top off . I keep reading about how much more efficient the German skimmers are, but don't see how it could be that drastic of a difference. JMO

BTW I now keep that 1 lb. jar of buffer on top of the skimmer to keep the top on .
Steve

[crab0000]

Oh and for all the doubters that is from rock that had been in my tank for at least three years.