things not to use or buy during your first 6 months in the hobby: FYI

[Sk8r]

Horseshoe crabs are almost always a bad bet...and sand sifting stars are only for the very largest tanks, because first they do in your sandbed and they they die of starvation.b

[otrlynn]

My 58 gallon is about two months old, but the live rock and inhabitants were transferred from a tank that was about 18 months old. The sand is new and is sugar grade argonite, ranging in depth from 2-3 inches. It was not "live" when purchased. I have a variety of snails and small hermits. At what point can I add Nassarius snails? What is a good number for a 58 gallon? I have also been considering a yellow watchman gobie...how mature does the tank need to be in order for it to find enough food in the sand. Also, is this fish likely to spread sand all over the place? This sugar fine sand really flies around.

[black_majik]

I disagree with one of your rules, a little bit. The bacteria booster " Bio-Spira" worked great for me in all of my tanks. My 20 was "cycled" overnight, but I do not trust results that fast and waited a week or two to be sure. My 75 took 5 days to "cycle", but again I waited to make sure. I will use it again on my AP 12 to make sure it is set up. It is live bacteria and not dead. ** By "cycled" I mean Am:0 Nitrite:0 Nitrate:20-25 ppm

[black_majik]

Also what I meant to say Sk8r was also if you can explain why those boosters are bad. ( cycling ones)

[Sk8r]

The YWG is well-mannered, and usually operates in about 3-4 inches at a time, for days on end in the same spot. Add his commensal shrimp, the tiger pistol, and you can triple that. I have the pair, however, and about 3 half-inch size nassarius, and my sandbed is staying very nice. I know what you mean about the sugar sand....that's what I have.
Other diggers: small gobies, jawfish, all do their bit to prevent bad pockets in a sandbed. My pearly jawfish changes her habitation periodically.
I'd say a YWG is the fish best fitted for a 58 g sand-cleaner...and they readily eat any other food offered, so they never starve. If you want two of them, get them together, because once they establish territory individually, they will attack any other YWG.

[snorvich]

One minor point. Mandarins that eat prepared food will not survive without enough copepods. They compete poorly for food put into the tank, most prepared food is nutritionally deficient for them, and they are opportunistic grazers who eat constantly. So, it would be desirable to amend your six month rule to exclude mandarins and scooter blennies period.

[Sk8r]

Cycling boosters...have two problems. 1, you need to know what's in them. It may be anything from ammonia to sugar to bacteria.... and you hope there's nothing that will throw your salt levels or chemistry: never add what you can't test for. 2) there's not going to be much in them that's useful to you. You have bacteria already in your live rock: that's what's live, besides its hitchhikers. So that's there. And if you want your tank to go, buy the smallest can of Formula One Flake and add 2-3 flakes daily for under 20 gallons tank, a flake per gallon of tank daily for anything above. Do this every day until you get a reading of ammonia, then stop. When the ammonia disappears---you're cycled, your sandbed is live, and your rock is in full bloom. My objection to it is twofold: first that you don't necessarily know what's in it, never good; and secondly that there's a cheaper way to do it that leaves you a can of fairly decent fishfood for emergencies---I'm cheap, on small things.

Same thing on preparations to let you grow coralline algae. What are they? Probably high doses of magnesium and calcium. These are potent chemicals in the care of your tank. You want coralline? Test your calcium once your tank stabilizes, test your alk---both are real good tests to have. And test your mg. Get your mg and cal both up on the high end, and you'll have done as much to grow coralline algae as you can possibly do---but you do have to have one rock with coralline on it somewhere in your tank. If you can't get one, there might be an excuse for the purple-in-a-bottle, but otherwise---better to spend your money on chemicals and tests you can actually use for the life and maintenance of your tank. Coralline won't grow well, imho, in the absence of sufficient, balanced calcium and mg.

[Sk8r]

That's true, Snorvich---mandys [mandarins] and scooters aren't gobies or blennies at all, in primo---they both belong to a class called dragonets, and they are primarily pod eaters. YOu think your tank has a million pods? yep, and a determined mandy can go through them in a week, look like a blimp, and then starve to death, because they've killed all the breeding pods. A refugium is the only way to have a mandy or scooter remain healthy, because though some will eat prepared food, they still need the pods for a healthy diet. I have 70 lbs of live rock in a 54 and a 20g fuge with lots of pods, and my mandy eats prepared food.

But in a very young tank, you can have accidents that take out all your pods...a fuge gives you backup in that department. But just don't get one of these fish until you're sure you're stable and until you really can feed one properly. I love these fish--and I hate to see them in trouble.

Also, it pains me to say it, don't pity-buy a really thin fish: it is probably doomed, unless they can prove it will eat if confronted with cheato full of pods. They do pass a point of no return, and there is very little you can do.

[otrlynn]

Probably a little off topic regarding "what not to add"-- but can you explain the relationship between the YWG and tiger pistol Sk8R? Does the YWG or fish/shrip combo operate in one area for a few days then move somewhere else?

[Sk8r]

Well, the YWG and tiger hang out in the same burrow, and the poor tiger keeps digging, but the fickle YWG keeps changing his mind about which of several exits from under my rock pile he wants. I have a big pyramid of rock in the middle, and the YWG will be left, right, front left, front right, changing sometimes 2x a day. I occasionally have to elevate a coral [my fox is being crowded by a current sandpile that has been building for, oh, a week] so it is a dynamic process, but just setting it up where it can't get sand rained on it will solve the problem. Corals sitting directly on the sand, like the fox, may get dusted, but setting them on a prop of coral rubble will protect them. This would be less a problem, but I'm a 54g bow wedge, and they're busy right dead center.

The pistols are an interesting creature: their punch is much smaller than the mantis, but still potent enough to kill---they just never do. In the dark, they emit a flash of light, which is actually the accelerated water in the claw area making a kind of plasma: we're talking that kind of speed. Really science fictional creature, the pistol, but he does no damage.

[~SIRENA~]

SK8r: Thank you. I will put in a dsb for the fuge and add 1" sandbed for the dt . I want low maintenance. I have mostly a fish only tank now and want to add an anemone or two. I don't know much about corals so for now I'm staying away.
I have
2 chromis
2 percs
1 flame angel
9 nassarius
5 mexican turbos

does this sound ok?

[otrlynn]

I just "googled" pistol shrimp and one of the first sites that came up is an amazing u tube video of a pistol shrimp "firing" a blast of water and stunning and eating a shrimp. Are you sure these guys are safe in a marine tank? It seems like my peppermint shrimp would be an easy meal. Check out the videhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKPrGxB1Kzco...

[otrlynn]

oops, that URL is not clear. It is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKPrGxB1Kzc

[Purple Penguins]

great thread Sk8r you should start a "Just ask Sk8r" thread

[Sk8r]

Lol!

Actually, though possessing thermonuclear weapons, my pistol shrimp is quite the pacifist. I've heard him snap twice since I've owned him---once just as he landed in the tank 'calling' the nearest YWG [my only] who instantly paired with him; and once the other day when a silly scarlet hermit was determined to get into his burrow while he was trying to get out the door---he snapped. The crab stayed still a moment [the force hit the hermit's shell, not the crab] and then wandered off. On one other occasion I saw him grab a crab, shell and all, and carry him into the burrow, much as if he was moving a piece of rock. The crab wandered out again, oblivious.
He's doubled in size since I got him--is now lobster-shaped, white and redbrown striped, and about 2 1/2" long. But remains a good citizen. I have peppermint shrimp that come and go, no aggression.

[Sk8r]

Sirena, you should be fine with that load. As your tank matures it may be able to take a bit more, if it's the 104g in your sig line.

[mhhauser321]

How about not buying just one type of food for your fish actually Using a number of frozen and dry foods combined to give a greater variety creating a healthy well balanced diet for your little fishies.

Also using vitamin supplemets helps a whole bunch

matt

[JC_UF_ITK]

]JC_UF, yes: it will overdo it, disable your deep sandbed and then die of starvation: bad for the star, too. But read below about types of sandbed.

Excuse my ignorance, but what do you mean by disable it?

[Cope]

The star will eat all the good out of you're sand bed and make it dead.

On a side note that shrimp vid it bad, I think I'm gonna get me one,

[cd77]

FWIW, and maybe a little off-topic, I found that adding a detritivore kit after a couple months of setting up my DSB really helped. I'm sure it's not a necessity, but the additional life it added to the bed really seems to keep it cleaner. If I'm out of line, let me know, I'm still learning here

[MiddletonMark]

Chris -

How do you define detrivore kit?

[that, IME, can mean a lot of things ... some useful, some not]

[cd77]

They usually contain various worms, stars, pods, snails, shrimp, etc.. Sand from a well established tank is usually included. Some DSB related web sites recommend purchasing one of these to "re-charge" your DSB yearly. The worms were really noticeable after a week and are still going strong. An immediate need for such a kit may not be necessary if you got some good seeded sand or good LR/LS.

I'm not planning on purchasing such a kit for my new 45G (also a DSB) and just wait it out to see if I get the life in it that is so abundant in my 70G.

Here is a link to the last one I purchased:
http://www.inlandaquatics.com/prod/prod_detrit.html

[MiddletonMark]

Personally ... I'd pay most attention to the shrimp, snail, and star varieties.

Sk8r did a great intro on starfish to avoid ... though the `micro-stars' IME are a good addition, that will last.

As far as shrimp ... IMO, they're more likely to eat the stuff in the sandbed vs. do an important function. That's my opinion, but IMO shrimp are generally for our amusement vs. major functionality [unless you overfeed]

Snails ... covered above. Like Sk8r, I also am not a big fan of Nassarius. They're carrion-eaters. Unless you overfeed, IMO they do not perform a major necessary function. As they don't graze algae - IMO I'd skip them.

That's just my take on it. Generally, such kits are a good idea [esp when setting up a tank]. The yearly `recharge' seems like it might be useful for some tanks ... but also a good sales tool.

Anyway, always interested to hear Sk8r [and others] good advice - I don't have all the answers, nowhere near

[Sk8r]

I like that detrivore kit: I may get one for myself. My move so blitzed my sandbed---I had to get new, and I've been doing everything I can to get varied life in there. Stomatellas and bristleworms, great for the tank or fuge, mysis and gammarus for the fuge, dunno the snails, but I'm game. Snails are easy to catch compared to say, damsels. Microstars--pretty good. Asterinas are a bit of a nuisance, making tracks in your coralline, but hey, it's all texture, part of that circle of life thing. I've never had a chiton, limpet, or abalone: they're algae eaters, and I don't have much algae. I had an urchin for a while [tripneustes gratillis], which will eat most anything, and rip off bubble algae to wear on its backside---but mine grew at an amazing rate, and couldn't help shoving significant rocks in not very long a time. I turned him in at the lfs, and I hope he went to a really big tank. He was about the size of your average orange when I sent him to the lfs.

[Sk8r]

Let's talk again about sandbeds: think of a 14-layer cake, you know, one of those things with about as much icing as cake. Wonderful, unless you take a knife and stir it all up. Then it's not cake anymore.
Well, your deep sandbed is meant to have layers, certain bacteria living a certain distance from the light, where they like it, and adapted over millennia to derive their food from what filters down from above. Your own, yes, your very own sandbed is one living creature, in a sense, capable of reducing nitrite all the way to nitrogen gas. Stir it, scramble those layers, and you're killing it, as a creature. You know---you can wound a small critter, and you've pretty well killed it. Your chances of randomly inflicting a mortal wound on a really big critter are much less. Sandbeds are like that. Little ones can be hurt very easily. Big ones are more sturdy.
So when contemplating ANY 'cleaning' of your sandbed [not something you really ought to be doing in your first 6 months of life, imho] you need to have something that operates with a delicacy appropriate to the size of your sandbed. A single specialized snail and some bristleworms are enough for a nano. A single fighting conch with worms is the next step up; or a yellow watchman---say 30-50. 50 and up, consider more than one sand cleaner, say a conch, some nassarius AND a watchman, with worms or brittle stars until you're over 100, and then maybe two conches and all of the above. Enlarge that to 500 gallons, erase the yellow watchman and go for the diamond goby---that's how much difference there is between them.

That detrivore kit gets stuff not just in the sandbed, but up in the recesses of the rocks, and can breed in your fuge. Good stuff.

Now, if you've got a diamond or sleeper that is taking prepared food, and that you're just terribly fond of, and you don't mind sand flung hither and yon in the display, consider an RSB [discussed earlier in this thread] [remote sandbed in a fuge] to support your goby habit. Personally, I think a cleaner more apt to the size of the sandbed is a good idea. And it's certainly a decision you can wait on. Your tank will suffer far less from having NO cleaner than it will from having the WRONG cleaner.