what's killing my tangs?

[goldmaniac]

I will preface this by saying that I've made this obervation over a period of years, and this thread is prompted by a recent demise of a new 4" naso tang I just put in the tank. I've lost 3 or 4 tangs over about 2-3 years over this.

it appears randomly, about once every 4-6 months, that a tang just starts breathing quickly and shallow thru the gills. Swimming slows to a hover, eventually. No other symptoms. usually takes about 48 hours from when I first notice the breathing and swimming difference to the fish so lethargic that it gets sucked up by my external overflow. Typically, the fish stops eating.

I tried every reef-safe medication I can think of ,but nothing has worked.

My biggest loss was a 11" Naso last November. I hadn't added ANYTHING to the tank for about 6 months before that. "random" symptoms.

But I just added a little (4") Naso to my 120gallon on Sunday, and in 48 hours, he was done in. Melafix and Garlic, my staple Ich treatment, doesn't seem to do a thing for this illness.

I have virtually no fish in my display (mostly zoas right now) so I very carefully drip-acclimated him and added him to the display. I know I need a quarantine, and currently dusting off a 32 gallon hex tank and setting it up in the basement. This way, Copper will be an option in the future. But I want to know what this is.

Anybody know the disease/symptoms/cure?

Tanks,

G.

[hahnmeister]

Well, tell us more about your system. Is it a full blown reef with corals? What is the circulation in the tank (pumps), temperature, etc. If you can post some test kit readings, that would help as well. pH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and oxygen levels would be the first things I would look at for fish. Also, do you know the salinity of where you are buying the fish from vs. your salinity? How do you acclimate?

[goldmaniac]

I acclimate via drip method, 5 gallons over 4 hours. Nice and slow. But usually it's not a new fish that gets this disease. Usually it's a resident of the tank for 6 months plus. I have two kids, 4 years and 8 months, i haven't added much livestock to the tank, fish wise, for a while. all I have in there currently is a Flame Angel, green mandarin, Rainford's Goby, and a Citron clown goby. That's it.

It's a 120 gallon with about a 50-55 gallon sump and refugium. Caulerpa in the 'fuge, reverse light period. I use 100 micron socks trapping particulates right when the water enters the refugium. Dual return pumps, I estimate, with 5-foot head, about 600 gph each. I pretty much max out my 1400gph external overflow.

Nitrates < 3
salt = 1.024-025
Alk = 10 - 11
Ca = 420
pH = 8.3 - 8.4
temp = 78-80, that's the maximum fluctuation usually
no ammonia
no nitrites
tank's been running for 6+ years

I have lots of live rock, and recently I've been getting into zoas and palys, I have about a dozen types now, most 5 polyps or less. plus some garden-variety soft corals, GSPs , Kenya Trees, yellow-button polyps, that sort of thing. That's the extent of the 'reef' but it inhibits stronger medication.

thanks,

[hahnmeister]

How about the salinity of where the tangs come from? Many places keep their fish only systems as low as 1.010 ... this means a longer acclimation period or more sensitive fish (like tangs) can die from the change. The 'heavy breathing' is how tangs try to compensate usually... they are trying to take in more water in a last ditch effort to rehydrate their bodies because they havent acclimated yet so their systems (kidneys) arent able to keep up yet with the higher salt levels.

Otherwise, heavy breathing could be from lack of oxygen... which is why I ask what the flow is like.

OTherwise, it might be worth looking at where you get the fish from. There are a few LFS's around me that I just wont buy from... period. I know the fish I buy from them will die.

[McTeague]

In my limited experience I have found that tangs benefit from a 15 minute freshwater dip on a weekly or monthly basis. They seem to be prone to various external parasites and the freshwater dip really seems to make them happier.

[yoboyjdizz]

Originally posted by McTeague
In my limited experience I have found that tangs benefit from a 15 minute freshwater dip on a weekly or monthly basis. They seem to be prone to various external parasites and the freshwater dip really seems to make them happier.

Care to elaborate on this more? How many times you done this, which tangs you did it with and what was the reason? I can't see why you would want to do this to any fish.

[yoboyjdizz]

oxygen could be a main factor, specially in a 120 with an 11inch naso but also it could of been stress of being in a small tank for its size. Besides the naso's any other tang you had trouble with?

[bucket brigade]

Originally posted by McTeague
In my limited experience I have found that tangs benefit from a 15 minute freshwater dip on a weekly or monthly basis. They seem to be prone to various external parasites and the freshwater dip really seems to make them happier.

I whole-heartedly agree. My Desjardin Tang was nearly on the brink of death with ICH 2 times now and saved it both times by netting and FW dipping for 15-20 minutes.

The key is to only use RO/DI water in a bucket and the same temp as the tank. ONLY RO/DI water. Watch tang in the bucket the whole time and if it stops swimming/moving, nudge with net and keep it moving the whole time. Once back in tank, it will look stressed out and be breathing rapidly like its going to die but w/i 2-4hrs it will be happier than ever

[am3gross]

are any other fish dieing or is it just tangs? my thought is maybe you brought something in with your live rock.

[Racing1]

my guess would be velvet.... this seems to kill them quickly like you described.... Where are you getting them from? Same LFS? if so try somewhere else.... Check salinity from where you are getting them... acclimating them for so long is not good either... 15 - 20 minutes max as you are stressing them even more by acclimating them for so long... Then quarantine them so if they do have any disease you can treat it right away and your odds will be better....

I agree on the loss of your large naso... Too small a tank for a fish that size... Sorry for the loss..

Good luck...

[reefergeorge]

Originally posted by bucket brigade
I whole-heartedly agree. My Desjardin Tang was nearly on the brink of death with ICH 2 times now and saved it both times by netting and FW dipping for 15-20 minutes.

The key is to only use RO/DI water in a bucket and the same temp as the tank. ONLY RO/DI water. Watch tang in the bucket the whole time and if it stops swimming/moving, nudge with net and keep it moving the whole time. Once back in tank, it will look stressed out and be breathing rapidly like its going to die but w/i 2-4hrs it will be happier than ever

He doesnt say that his tang has any parasites. He just does it for prevention I guess.
IMO fw baths only stress the fish more, they lose more of their stress coat, it only kill some of the parasites on them, and once back in the tank they will quickly pick the parasite back up.

[ezcompany]

Could be flukes?

[capn_hylinur]

First of all you have my total sympathy for your loss. I have three tangs and would really be upset if anything happened to any one of them.

The fuge might be the problem here. I notice it has caulpra algae. Depending on how long you leave thel light on it can go sexual. This is a rapid release of spores that literally can starve out the oxygen in a tank in 24 hours.
I would switch to chaeto--you can run the light 24/7 and promote rapid photosynthesis which will eat up the carbon dioxide, nitrates and produce oxygen for the system. I would make sure the flow is quite fast through it so the chaeto can work with more of the water column.

The other point that comes to mind is your co2/ oxygen ration.
Are you dosing with anything to keep you ph at 8.3 that might artifically hide a possible co2 problem.

Cranking up the skimmer will also help with oxygenation--coupled with an open window or a line to the outside of the house.

Again thinking out loud here---but if it can help with your losses then great.

[goldmaniac]

First of all, thanks to everyone to post so quickly here. All good suggestions/ideas/comments.

A couple points to clarify my situation:

- I checked my fish tank log, the big naso was 10.25", not 11". I must have got it in my head that 'almost 11"' was the same as 11". regardless, I'll acknowledge that a Naso over 10" in a 4'x2'x2' tank is a very big fish, too big for the 120. I bought her a little over 5" about 5 years before. I was still pretty uninformed back then, wet/dry system, bioballs, dead coral decorations.

- usually the fish are longtime residents of the tank, not newcomers. This affliction doesn't usually happen to new fish. And it doesn't seem to happen to any fish other than tangs. Therefore, I am figuring that salinity can be ruled out, as this tank is pretty stable.

- It's happened to a Purple Tang that I had for 5 years, as well. around April of 2007.

- YEARS ago, it happens to a clown tang and a kole. These same simptoms might have happened to a coral beauty and/or a lemonpeel angel back in '01 or '02, but I have to dismiss that as poor husbandry . Again, it was a long time ago, and my parameters weren't anything to brag about. I had a 75 gal back then.

- I have waterfalls from one section of the 'fuge to another. Plus, the surface is open on the display tank, I'm pretty confident that O2 isn't the real problem. No other fish seem to have a problem.

- My Caulerpa has never bloomed. I run a 30 minute "on" period in the middle of the dark period, that seems to keep the caulerpa from blooming. Never had an outbreak.

- yes, I am very interested in switching to Chaeto. Anyone have any with lots of 'pods?

thanks again everyone,
Eric G.

[goldmaniac]

Also, I saw a couple of educated guesses:

Originally posted by Racing1
my guess would be velvet.... this seems to kill them quickly like you described....
Good luck...

I'll look it up for detailed description, and cure... thanks. Anyone else thinking this?


and

Originally posted by ezcompany
Could be flukes?

heh do you mean Flukes, as in the parasite, or flukes as in the random loss due to Who The Hell Knows factor?

- and yes, I have a fish store or two around here that I won't touch anymore. If anyone is in the Philly area, they know of T.H.R., that's the place I trust the most around here, but any particular store is no common denominator with the tangs. As I said, usually it's just a random occurrance one morning that I find a tang hovering in the water column, breathing heavy. At that point, I give him one more morning alive. The 2nd morning, he's usually hermit crab food until I fish him out.

Thanks -

[capn_hylinur]

Originally posted by goldmaniac
First of all, thanks to everyone to post so quickly here. All good suggestions/ideas/comments.

A couple points to clarify my situation:

- I checked my fish tank log, the big naso was 10.25", not 11". I must have got it in my head that 'almost 11"' was the same as 11". regardless, I'll acknowledge that a Naso over 10" in a 4'x2'x2' tank is a very big fish, too big for the 120. I bought her a little over 5" about 5 years before. I was still pretty uninformed back then, wet/dry system, bioballs, dead coral decorations.

- usually the fish are longtime residents of the tank, not newcomers. This affliction doesn't usually happen to new fish. And it doesn't seem to happen to any fish other than tangs. Therefore, I am figuring that salinity can be ruled out, as this tank is pretty stable.

- It's happened to a Purple Tang that I had for 5 years, as well. around April of 2007.

- YEARS ago, it happens to a clown tang and a kole. These same simptoms might have happened to a coral beauty and/or a lemonpeel angel back in '01 or '02, but I have to dismiss that as poor husbandry . Again, it was a long time ago, and my parameters weren't anything to brag about. I had a 75 gal back then.

- I have waterfalls from one section of the 'fuge to another. Plus, the surface is open on the display tank, I'm pretty confident that O2 isn't the real problem. No other fish seem to have a problem.

- My Caulerpa has never bloomed. I run a 30 minute "on" period in the middle of the dark period, that seems to keep the caulerpa from blooming. Never had an outbreak.

- yes, I am very interested in switching to Chaeto. Anyone have any with lots of 'pods?

thanks again everyone,
Eric G.

inherent in what you are saying is that keeping a large tang is too small of a tank does affect their longevity. I read a number of articles to this but have not been in reef keeping long enough to experience it myself.
What you could be seeing here is the end of their "in captivity" life cycle.

even though you have cascading water it doesn't come close to the oxygen producing capacity of a 50 gal fuge full of cheato.
If I could get it across the border I would send you lots--hopfully someone in this area will read this and help you out.

[hahnmeister]

Originally posted by goldmaniac


- yes, I am very interested in switching to Chaeto. Anyone have any with lots of 'pods?

thanks again everyone,
Eric G.

I have something even better... 'Tang Heaven'.. grows like a weed for me and tangs munch on it like no tomorrow.

[onano]

I have also been unable to keep a tang. I have lost 2 Kole's all pretty much as you described. Happy, eating for months and then they lose all their color and gone. Everything else thrives in my tank. I have just given up on tangs for their sake and mine. When I make the jump into the 180+ gallons realm I may try again.

[bucket brigade]

...then again we are taking a fish that in the wild swims 10+ miles a day to search for food.... and we imprison it in a 4ft glass box and expect it to live a full life.

[goldmaniac]

Originally posted by bucket brigade
...then again we are taking a fish that in the wild swims 10+ miles a day to search for food.... and we imprison it in a 4ft glass box and expect it to live a full life.

the whole point of my thread is my intent to learn more and keep these fish healthy and active for as long as possible.

All I can assume is that you are trying to make the point of either 1) these fish will die no matter what because we're taking them out of the ocean and to just accept that or 2) we shouldn't be taking them out in the first place

is there a 3rd possible reason? I'm fully aware that I don't think of all possibilities for people's posts.

I'm looking for constructive imput from everyone, but I don't need Tang Police trolling for a Thread Hijack.

--------------------------------------

I've looked up Marine Velvet, and although the behavioral symptoms seem dead-on, I've never (and I've looked) seen any visible symptoms on the skin/body of the fish.

I'm reading that treatment is "almost exclusively copper", so that means that I need to get a permanent quarantine tank up and running. I need one, anyway. This is just more incentive.

the last quarantine tank I attempted was a huge disaster, about 2-3 years ago. I've been gun-shy since then to keep a QT tank.

G.

[goldmaniac]

Originally posted by hahnmeister
I have something even better... 'Tang Heaven'.. grows like a weed for me and tangs munch on it like no tomorrow.

Interesting... do you use it as a filtration vehicle? This is what I initially found:

...[freezing] is not recommended for live Tang Heaven. Live Tang Heaven will lose condition and die if frozen, or if chilled in the refrigerator for more than a few hours. However, Tang Heaven Nori is a dried product which may be frozen or stored in the refrigerator for weeks or even months."

... So Tang Heaven is being referred to as a type of Nori? because if that's the case, you're dead on.

this is going to kill the Tang Police...hahha...

In my tank, before this big Naso died, I had three tangs in there, a Purple, a Sohal, and the Naso. They'd eat maybe a half a sheet of dried nori a day, cut into 2"x2" squares, and they thrived. Click my Little Red House to see how the Sohal grew like mad. 3.5 inches to 7 inches in about a year, and then he went Carpet Surfing. 2 months later the Naso came up with the symptoms I'm describing in this thread.

1) is Tang Heaven a refugium algae?
2) is Tang Heaven actually Nori? my brother gets me 100 sheets of dried nori for $8 in Ft. Lauderdale. It's great.

G.

[goldmaniac]

Originally posted by capn_hylinur
inherent in what you are saying is that keeping a large tang is too small of a tank does affect their longevity. I read a number of articles to this but have not been in reef keeping long enough to experience it myself.
What you could be seeing here is the end of their "in captivity" life cycle.

even though you have cascading water it doesn't come close to the oxygen producing capacity of a 50 gal fuge full of cheato.
If I could get it across the border I would send you lots--hopfully someone in this area will read this and help you out.

thanks

Right now, I have a 'fuge with a "lawn" of Caulerpa Prolifera of about 24" x 16", so again, I don't think it's a lack of O2 in the water. But I'm constantly fighting red slime in the refugium. It just loves to climb onto the stalks and 'leaves' of my caulerpa. that's another reason why i'm looking to switch to chaeto. I'm wondering if the Caulerpa can't out-perform the Red Slime for nutrients, and I hear Chaeto grows like mad. and a 24x7 lighting scheme won't hurt, either!

I'm using Melev's light, ( http://www.melevsreef.com/fuge_bulb.html ) and the red slime actually has increased. Weird.

- I need to add that I have no protein skimmer in this system. Nitrates low, constantly < 4.

[capn_hylinur]

Originally posted by goldmaniac
the whole point of my thread is my intent to learn more and keep these fish healthy and active for as long as possible.

All I can assume is that you are trying to make the point of either 1) these fish will die no matter what because we're taking them out of the ocean and to just accept that or 2) we shouldn't be taking them out in the first place

is there a 3rd possible reason? I'm fully aware that I don't think of all possibilities for people's posts.

I'm looking for constructive imput from everyone, but I don't need Tang Police trolling for a Thread Hijack.

G.

The third reason could be that an 11 inch tang can't survive forever in a 120 gal fish tank

Tang Police---there is no such thing. Its a large group of experinced reefers that share the same opionion about the size of tangs and the tanks they are put in.

Please don't avoid the obvious answer here by believing in a false concept as the tang police---rather keep an open mind as to what people are taking the time to report to you.

Your an experinced reefer---you have stated yourself that an 11 inch fish is too big for your tank.

I report this to you as one concerned reefer to another.
Worry about what the "tang police" are going to say is limiting your objectivity here.

[capn_hylinur]

Originally posted by goldmaniac
thanks

Right now, I have a 'fuge with a "lawn" of Caulerpa Prolifera of about 24" x 16", so again, I don't think it's a lack of O2 in the water. But I'm constantly fighting red slime in the refugium. It just loves to climb onto the stalks and 'leaves' of my caulerpa. that's another reason why i'm looking to switch to chaeto. I'm wondering if the Caulerpa can't out-perform the Red Slime for nutrients, and I hear Chaeto grows like mad. and a 24x7 lighting scheme won't hurt, either!

I just had this problem with my fuge---I was advised to turn off the light for two days in the fuge--it worked have not seen any red slime in the last 4 days.
I also had the red slime starting to spread on the substrate and green algae on the front glass. Much to everyones disliking I let the algae build up on the front glass for about a week--no more red slime on the bottom.

[goldmaniac]

Originally posted by capn_hylinur
The third reason could be that an 11 inch tang can't survive forever in a 120 gal fish tank

Tang Police---there is no such thing. Its a large group of experinced reefers that share the same opionion about the size of tangs and the tanks they are put in.

Please don't avoid the obvious answer here by believing in a false concept as the tang police---rather keep an open mind as to what people are taking the time to report to you.

Your an experinced reefer---you have stated yourself that an 11 inch fish is too big for your tank.

I report this to you as one concerned reefer to another.
Worry about what the "tang police" are going to say is limiting your objectivity here.

Point taken -

Yes, I have considered that the Big Girl was just at the end of her life and simply expired. I acknowledge that she went through a period of time when I was at MOST an intermediately experienced reefer when she was acquired. My high nitrates during those first years definitely shortened her life span, I like to equate nitrates to living a smokey room, it won't kill you, but you won't thrive and it'll shorten your life.

But the symptoms on this thread has happened to me 3-4 times to tangs ONLY over the past 3-4 years. About once a year I lose a tang to what appears like respiratory infection of some kind, hence this thread.

My point with the comment of...

"...then again we are taking a fish that in the wild swims 10+ miles a day to search for food.... and we imprison it in a 4ft glass box and expect it to live a full life."

... was that it did not seem to have any constructive view. The use of the term "imprison" tipped me off. Since having large tangs in the tank in the past, I'm now focused on the challenge of purchasing and keeping the smallest and juvenile tangs available. I'm researching a community reef tank and the bigger tangs aren't usually part of that genre.

I actually agree that only the largest tanks should house medium to large sized tangs. I believe that each inch of tang needs about 25 gallons of tank. My 120 should house two 2" tangs or up to a single 5" tang, in my opinion.

I disagree with the fact that that there's no Tang Police, however. Aside from experienced reefers who know when too much fish is too much, I've found a different mindset that bases its input on jabs and critical comments without room for tolerance of others in the hobby.

----------------------------------------------------

Threadjack over

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anyone else have any idea what fast breathing, resulting in quick demise by tangs could be? again, no other symptoms as far as I could tell.

tanks,
G.