Advice Please

[Zen685]

I'm in the planning stages of upgrading to a 120 and I have a perfect spot in my house that backs up to my garage. I'd like to put the sump, fuge, frag tank, and everything except the display on the other side of the wall in my garage. I'm worried about keep the tank cool in the summer and warm in the winter. I have an insulated garage door and my garage stays fairly stable compared to most but I use it to park my cars so the door is opened pretty regulary. One of main main goals with this system is to not use a chiller but I don't see this working if I put it in the garage. Does anyone around here have any experience with this?

[Serra]

Paul W. has all his equip. in his garage. Find his thread on his 600 gallon tank and all the info is there...I think.

[Zen685]

Thanks Serra,

I've seen Paul's in person but it's kind of hard to compare a 600+ gal system to a 120+ gal system. During long periods of heat or cold it will act pretty much the same but it will react much slower than the one I'm planning. I'd like to know if anyone around here has anything closer to the size I'm looking at.

[pwhitby]

It really depends on how hot and cold your garage gets. I know that you know that...buts thats really the main issue.

I have found that if you insulate the sump and the rfugium, place a lid on the sump to limit evapotration, then the temperature change in the garage becomes less of an issue.

As for whether you will need a chiller or not...well you will figure that out come summer.

One thing you can do in summer tho is to increase airflow over the sump (i.e a big fan) to increase evaporation. That works really well.

--all in all, you should be just fine.

Paul.

[Zen685]

Thanks Paul, that's a good idea for the lid on the sump. I have a large fan that should work great. I may be able to wire it into a thermostat to automate things a little. Temperature fluctuations in my garage are pretty mild so this just may work.

[_Sooner_2]

I have my 120 reef set up similarly to how you want to do yours. The tank and sump are in the house, the 55 'fuge is on the other side of the wall in the garage. I also have my halide ballast and chiller in the garage. I feed the 'fuge from the sump with a mag 5. The main return pump runs thru the chiller, into the display tank. This set up allows me to turn the power off to the 'fuge only when doing a water change. I can tell you from my experiences that my chiller is 100% necessary. I also have a large heater in the 'fuge for the winter months.

Ronnie

[pwhitby]

if you can.....

Make a lid for the sump and hae a fan on a thermostat as you say blowing IN. Have an outlet connected to a wide hose exiting the garage (use a Clothes Dryer hose and outlet). That way the humidity doesnt go into the garage.

If you are really savvy......you can take that idea one step further, have water running over a bale of plastic for more surface area and you have a very efficient cooling system.

You will lose a lot to evaporation but you can take 10 degrees off a tank really easily.

Paul.

[Zen685]

As long as I'm using the same hot air from the garage that warmed the water in the first place, I doubt I'll see much difference. I'll have to blow cool air from inside the house over the bale of plastic to create any sort of temperature difference. Insulation from the other hot air will probably be my best bet.

In the end, I'll probably just get a big heater and a chiller like Sooner_2. The only reason I didn't want to run a chiller was the cost but if I get to build a frag tank and make my garage into a fish room it will be worth it.

[pwhitby]

It doesnt work like that....its the airflow itself that removes the heat, not the temperature differential.

P.

[Zen685]

Temperature does matter. We are talking about convection; we’re moving air over a surface area. The equation for convective heat transfer is:

Q=-hA(Ta-Tb)

Q= the heat transferred (how much heat is gained or lost)
h= the convective heat transfer coefficient (dependent on a lot of variables associated with what fluid your working with but it goes up as you increase the velocity of air)
Ta=temperature of the tank water
Tb=temperature of ambient air

From the equation above a greater Tb(ambient temperature) than Ta(tank temperature) would solve out to be a positive Q meaning heat was added to the tank.

To simplify things, as long as the velocity of the air movement remains constant, the only thing that changes your heat transfer is area and temperature difference.

[pwhitby]

No, we are not talking about convection. We are talking about humidity differentials.

If the relative humidity of air entering is less than the ambient air over the system it will cause evaporation, add to that the mild pressure differential and massive air flow and you will infact lose heat through evaporation. Its based on latent heat of evaporation, as the water evaporates it removes heat from the system...which I am sure you know.

If that didnt work ...then running a fan over your tank would not cool it either. Nor would misting yourself in summer to stay cold. Its also why you feel cold when you get of a swimming pool at 75F and stand in 90F sun.

I would check out an item called an Eco Chiller. Its the same as I described above.

Paul.

[sadsak]

Wow You guys lost me there!
But sounds like you 2 are on the same wavelength.

[pwhitby]

Wayne,

Its pretty simple really.

Above any layer of water there is always a layer of humid air (the vapor layer) In a closed system, say a tank with a glass hood, the water vapor will fill the entire space till it reaches a certain level. This level is referred to as the "vapor pressure".

The level of humidity, or vapor pressure in this case, is based on a number of issues, but for a given temperature there will be a certain amount of vapor and this amount of vapor will stay pretty constant. If you remove some of that vapor, by blowing it away, more vapor will come from the water. As it does so it removes heat energy from the water. The water gets slightly cooler.

Now........if you blow over the surface constantly, the vapor is constantly removed. The water constantly tries to reestablish the vapor layer and constantly loses heat in the process. (lots of constants there)....it works even better if the air being blown over the water is of low humidity (i.e, contains little water vapor of its own).

So.......thats why when you blow air over a tank it cools. Its the same reason the wind on a hot day makes you feel cold when you are wet and its why we sweat.

--does that make it any clearer?

Paul.

[Zen685]

Ok, I think I'm on the same page now. We're basically talking about a swamp cooler. The higher the temperature and the drier the air, the better the cooler would work but the more humidity in the garage the less it would work. Is this correct?

[pwhitby]

Yes, thats the principle. They work pretty well on tanks.

P.