GFI question

[RONCGIZMO]

The outlet box that is...not the main

[stugray]

Here's a trivia question:

What happens if you have an ungrounded outlet ( No third wire ) and you press the "test" button on the GFCI?

Stu

[BeanAnimal]

Reworded...

It will trip if the test button on the receptacle is pressed.

Ungrounded GFCI units will NOT trip if the "test button" on a handheld tester is pressed.

[AlexB650]

awesome, thanks guys. i appreciate all the time you took to explain that so thoroughly. now, let's see if i can put one in without shocking myself. i really just want one for a piece of mind, if nothing else.

[BeanAnimal]

Well the breaker should be off and the circuit verified dead with a tester first! You can get a little plug in tester at HD for less than $10.

Once you get the outlet cover off, if you notice that the wire insulation is at all old or brittle, just leave it alone. If it looks like it is string or cloth covered, leave it alone. You don't want to mess with problems like that if you are not well versed in what you are getting into. The last thing you want to do is create a short in a good wire that has old insulation on it.

Let me rephrase these: If the insulation looks old and brittle, don't unscrew the receptacle and try to pull it out. Once you crack the insulation off of the wires you have a mess on your hand and there is no turning back, no matter how deep you have to dig to get the problem fixed. The old "open a can of worms".

Put the cover back on and go buy the cord and plug type GFCIs.

[AlexB650]

Will do. Thanks Bean Animal. you're going to laugh, but it's a good thing i posted here, cuz i was going to drive a stake into the ground and hook it all up that way.

[killerbee181]

Originally posted by BeanAnimal
That is certainly not good advice coming from an electrician. It is against code to bond the neutral to ground at the receptacle!

ok let's think about this then. by code you can't put a 3 prong outlet in without a ground, and your telling them to use a plug in gfci which has a ground on it. now in order to plug that into a 2 prong outlet you would have to remove the ground which (is against code) or you would have to install a 3 prong outlet with no ground which is against code. so either way you do this here your (breaking code).

[pescadero]

Originally posted by BeanAnimal

That is certainly not good advice coming from an electrician. It is against code to bond the neutral to ground at the receptacle!

Originally posted by killerbee181
ok let's think about this then. by code you can't put a 3 prong outlet in without a ground, and your telling them to use a plug in gfci which has a ground on it. now in order to plug that into a 2 prong outlet you would have to remove the ground which (is against code) or you would have to install a 3 prong outlet with no ground which is against code. so either way you do this here your (breaking code).

I didn't jump on the white = green thing because I thought it was pointless to joust with an electrician. Instead I bit my lip ... but I'm glad that BeanAnimal responded.

I think that the answer to the "what do you do" question is very simple: when you're upgrading an electrical circuit to accommodate a device that requires an earth reference, you need to upgrade the entire electrical circuit so that it is compliant with code. This means that when you install a device that's intended to work with in a grounded circuit, you have to upgrade to provide a grounded environment so that you are compliant with code.

I've heard lots of electricians say that ground = neutral. That may be the case in the service panel where bus connections are made, and you may be able to prove that continuity exists between green and neutral on the same circuit, but green does not equal neutral. For safety reasons, it imperative not to connect return to ground at the outlet box. In addition, its important to consider that Ground is common to ALL circuits, but the white return wire is not. Residual Current Devices will trip in two types of situations where neutral is mis-wired: one is a "borrowed" neutral from another circuit (crossed neutral on a split load distribution board), the other is a neutral to earth fault downstream of an RCD. Both of these conditions are all too commonly encountered, and both of them are discussed in the IEE article that I cited previously.

[BeanAnimal]

Originally posted by killerbee181
ok let's think about this then.

I don't know what to say, other than I can't believe I am having this conversation with an electrician! You have changed your argument. You FIRST indicated that it would be ok to tie the neutral to ground at the receptacle! That is very bad advice and very against code.

So sure, lets think about this.

by code you can't put a 3 prong outlet in without a ground,

That is correct, a standard 3 prong receptacle must have a dedicated Equipment Grounding conductor, separate from the Neutral conductor.

and your telling them to use a plug in gfci which has a ground on it. now in order to plug that into a 2 prong outlet you would have to remove the ground which (is against code) or you would have to install a 3 prong outlet with no ground which is against code. so either way you do this here your (breaking code).

1) You can use a 2-prong adaptor to connect the Cord and Plug style GFCI.

2) The NEC does not cover what a homeowner plugs in. There is a difference between homeowner using a 2-wire adaptor to plug in equipment and a person replacing a wiring device with one that does not meet code. Big difference.

Lets get back on topic here:

The idea is to protect the end user with a GFCI. His options are

1) Replace the 2 wire receptacle with a properly grounded 3-wire receptacle.

2) Replace the he receptacle with a GFCI and place the "NO EQUIPMENT GROUND" sitcker on it. This is allowed by code.

3) Plug in a 2-wire to 3-wire adaptor and a cord and plug GFCI unit. This is the same as option number #2 except for the fact that the NEC has nothing to say about it because it is out of their scope.

ALL 3 options are acceptable and listed in order of preference. However, not all homeowners are capable of replacing receptacles, especially when they are given terrible advice by somebody they feel they should trust.

The option you gave was to [SIC] "Pigtial the ground lug to the Neutral because they are both the same anyway". I almost fell out of my chair when I read that AND then read that you list your occupation as an electrician. I would expect such poor advice from a layman or an uninformed DIYer, but not an electrician.

[pescadero]

good thing we have inspectors.

[killerbee181]

i never said that was the proper thing to do. the right thing to do is run a new circuit all the way back to the panel and install a grounded gfci, but in my experiences people don't always do what you tell them to do. you tell them they need a new circuit and they say screw it and do nothing and keep on with an ungrounded circuit. now you really think your going to be so much safer with a gfci that has no ground? people your working with water and electricity and even worse saltwater! every peice of equipement in my tank has a grounded plug now when you plug in all those devices there all connected together but go no where. by connecting the ground to neutral your atleast giving it a path back to ground. rather then having all that stray voltage lingering around your tank. now you say install one of those 3 prong to 2 prong converters in, there intended for the old bx when they installed the ground wire to the boxes and left it there when you put that converter you install the trim plate screw threw that little hole and that mechanically gets it back to ground threw the screws on the device. now what i was trying to state is, no doing it that way is not code but it's better then no ground at all. it's better then relying on the gfci to trip everytime. I've been doing this 11 yrs and i can garrantee 1 out of 10 gfci's installed malfuntion. they don't trip at all. or they will trip with the test button but when you plug in a gfci tester and press the test button on it, they don't trip. and the gfci won't stop stray voltage. oh and it's people like you that make these forums so hateful. instead of just explaining your argument you have to make all those nasty comments. does that make you feel big? well it just shows how pitiful you really are.

[BeanAnimal]

Originally posted by killerbee181
i never said that was the proper thing to do.

Sure you did You said:
"use the neutral as both. It's the same thing. Just pig tail the neutral and hook it up on the neutral and the ground screw. Works just the same. " I am not splitting hairs here. You said it rather clearly and that is exactly what my responses were directed towards.

the right thing to do is run a new circuit all the way back to the panel and install a grounded gfci, but in my experiences people don't always do what you tell them to do.

As shown above, there are other safe options. Maybe not ideal, but then again what is ideal?

you tell them they need a new circuit and they say screw it and do nothing and keep on with an ungrounded circuit.

The OP clearly says he is a student that is renting. I don't think pulling in a dedicated branch circuit for his fish tank is an option. Granted, I have pulled plenty of circuits into apartments I have lived in, but I am not your average renter.

As for the rest of your post, we have already covered most of the points you brought up.

I will touch on one that has not been mentioned:

I've been doing this 11 yrs and i can garrantee 1 out of 10 gfci's installed malfuntion. they don't trip at all.

That is what the TEST button is for. The new generation of GFCIs will not reset if the voltage comparator is inoperable. Older devices would reset no matter what. The lesson: Regularly test your gfci.

Nobody is trying to argue that a 2-wire circuit is better or that GFCIs don't fail. Within the context of this thread, the OP was given options.

Lastly:
I am not being hateful at all.

YOU listed yourself as an electrician. In addition you have referenced your 11 year experience as a credential. In doing so, you have attempted to establish the fact that you are a professional. It would follow That that you are speaking as an expert and your advice should be trusted above that of the average responder. That is exactly what the average Joe walks away with. They ask, you are the pro, so they listen.

The advice you gave in this thread was terrible and NOT something that should be expected to come from an experienced electrician. At best it was irresponsible. The most important thing here is to make sure nobody heads that advice. My remarks were not mean to be hateful, they were meant to be pointed.

[pescadero]

Originally posted by killerbee181 i never said that was the proper thing to do.

you may not have said it was proper, but you are supposed to be an expert in the field and you recommended doing something that was totally improper, totally unsafe, and a violation of the National Electircal Code. I can't imagine any professional deliberately giving out such dangerous advice.

the right thing to do is run a new circuit all the way back to the panel and install a grounded gfci, but in my experiences people don't always do what you tell them to do.

i would have expected that a qualified electrician would have said that in the beginning. its good to see that we are all now in agreement on what is the proper thing to do.

you tell them they need a new circuit and they say screw it and do nothing and keep on with an ungrounded circuit.

there is a big difference between giving out good advice that people won't follow, and giving out dangerous advice that people will follow. one is responsible and the other is irresponsible, no, make that negligent. i think its somewhat ironic that an electrician is giving out advice that may end up killing a lawyer.

now you really think your going to be so much safer with a gfci that has no ground?
...
I've been doing this 11 yrs and i can garrantee 1 out of 10 gfci's installed malfuntion. they don't trip at all. or they will trip with the test button but when you plug in a gfci tester and press the test button on it, they don't trip. and the gfci won't stop stray voltage.

i think that you and i are ultimately in agreement that GFCI are a good idea, but that it is utter foolishness to rely on them to protect you, because the devices have an unacceptably high failure rate. only the naive would rely on them as their only means of protection against electrocution.

where we seem to differ is on our opinion about how to make the tank safer. IMO, the gold standard for making the tank safer is to install a grounded circuit with a GFCI on the supply side, *AND* an earthed grounding probe directly in the tank. THAT will provide a foolproof return to ground. of course it goes without saying that anyone with a healthy respect for electricity would shut of the power supply to the tank before sticking their hands in the water.

by connecting the ground to neutral your atleast giving it a path back to ground. rather then having all that stray voltage lingering around your tank.

Your suggestion is to wire neutral to ground at the outlet, without proving any direct return from the tank itself. The difference between these approaches is HUGE. If the black wire leaks and the white wire doesn't, the tank is energized and there is no return path through the water other than through the fishkeeper!

oh and it's people like you that make these forums so hateful. instead of just explaining your argument you have to make all those nasty comments. does that make you feel big? well it just shows how pitiful you really are.

personally, i did not find his comments to be offensive or hateful. i thought that they were very even tempered and polite. perhaps the sting comes more from embarrassment than from a vicious attack.

[pescadero]

oh, i see that BeanAnimal and I were both posting essentially the same comments at essentially the same time. sorry killerbee, i didn't intend to gang up on you.