Reef-Farm operations

[traveller7]

Originally posted by mr.wilson
Any updates? It looks like the new photo rule curbed all of the interesting threads in the forum, as I had expected.

At risk of taking a thread off topic, care to expand on that comment?

[raaden]

I think this is the rule that is being referred to.

Anyway, it is not so much that (although it is a factor) as much as my time has been spent working on some side projects (geneology tracking for the Reef-Farm, and working with a bunch of others setting up an aquaculture specific forum MAQO.org for those that are working toward creating the sustainable hobby all of us are so desparately in need of.)

There has been quite a bit happening at the Reef-Farm even though the updates have been well overdue.

New stock has been added and you can see info on that on my new Reef-Farm blog , as well as some work to keep up with the ridiculous weather that has continued (temps swinging 50 degrees in 48 hours).

For the most part things have been going well lately for me, and I have started to zero in on some species that I think will work well. Right now leathers and zo's seem to be the best fit and I have 6 different types of leather all of which are doing great, and the zo's, while they don't open up all the way, are spreading very well. For testing I have taken a few into my display tank to see what they will end up like. Once inside they open beautifully and since they are growing very densely in the greenhouse they are full and nice looking once they get into a display tank.

I am still tweaking my hvac to get the best results, but with temp swings like we have been having it seems to be a lost cause. As soon as I find a good adjustment the temps change dramatically and I have to start over. C'est la vie, that is half the fun.

A couple of strange things are going on that I can't explain so maybe you all will have some input. In the epoxy tank (which now is without livestock except a few fish) I have pods and roti's like nobodys business, but in the poly tank I can get them to take off. I have been sieving them from the epoxy tank to the poly tank weekly, but still don't seem much of them if at all, while in the epoxy tank I seem them congregating in the corners constantly. I can't really explain this and it has me a bit worried that something about the polymer used is the issue.

[mr.wilson]

To answer Sonja's question, the new photo rule discussed in these threads.
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...readid=1211962
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...readid=1206024

For traveller7, the subject was covered sufficiently in the above threads.

[RedSonja]

Okay, thanks for the links mr.wilson and raaden. Lately I've barely had time to read the "new posts in subscribed threads" here let alone anything new, and I missed that one. Still ruminating on what I'm reading, so I'll not jump in on it either way.

-Sonja

[raaden]

Wow there has been quite a bit of activity since I was last here. I will see if I can catch up a bit.

The idea of the sand maze was more for the water passively moving through the sand than forced movement. The idea was to bury some sand filled 3-4" PVC pipe in the sand. since only the end of the PVC would be exposed to the water you are effectively increasing the "depth of the sand bed" since water would have to osmosize through the sand in the pipe.

Mechanical filtration:
I broke down a few weeks ago and put a small skimmer and a pleated filter (not diatom) on the epoxy tank. The phyto was getting so dense I couldn't see 4" into it and was afraid everything would crash. I used them to clean the water to what I thought was acceptable (not perfect) and stopped, three days later it was back. I have been doing this the last few weeks and the epoxy tank is just starting to stay in the acceptable range without the skimmer and filter. They have both been off for about 6 days and the tank actually seems to be clearing more on its own.

I can say that I will not be continuing this though as I am very interested in figuring out how to minimize artificial filtration. While I completely agree it is absolutely vital to a display (read: looks nice)system I am not so sure it is necessary for propagation (atleast not what I plan to propagate) systems. The poly tank has had no mechanical filtration since inception (except for using a fish net to get the bugs off the surface of the water) and it is doing great. I have been adding carbon for a week when I stock it, but that is all.

[mr.wilson]

Do you notice any other signs of health issues with livestock kept in the poly tanks?

Corals are a great meter, as they can detect the otherwise undectable. Test kits are severly limited. Do you get the same polyp extension in the poly tanks, that you get in the epoxy tanks? Try moving a test coral to the poly tanks.

Thanks for the update.

[raaden]

Hammondo,

Great to have you in here. It sounds like your setup is going to become my new goal , do you have any more information or somewhere I can go to see more about it.

I borrowed a Lux meter when I was looking into the site, but haven't used it recently. I have been looking for a par meter with no luck and would rather wait to get one of those. I do agree I need to see what I have as far as light, because I am sure that light is becoming an issue.

[RedSonja]

We have a par meter we can bring by sometime. We meant to bring it when we brought the tang to you but forgot.

-Sonja

[raaden]

Sonja,

sounds like you should plan a trip in the near future. I am going to get some samples in for different types of shading and I would love to test it out.

[hammondo]

Originally posted by BallaBooyeaH
Hammondo,

Sydney boy. Where abouts are you from.

I am from Mosman and now living in rieland and looking at a GH as well.

I am currently a wholseller for fish/Corals and rock.

Not wanting to hijack the thread but get to see this going on in the home town.

Andrew

Hi Andrew, I'm in Allmbie heights near Manly, so very close to Mosman. The greenhouse is in Terry Hills area.

Cheers
Greg

[hammondo]

Originally posted by raaden
Hammondo,

Great to have you in here. It sounds like your setup is going to become my new goal , do you have any more information or somewhere I can go to see more about it.

I borrowed a Lux meter when I was looking into the site, but haven't used it recently. I have been looking for a par meter with no luck and would rather wait to get one of those. I do agree I need to see what I have as far as light, because I am sure that light is becoming an issue.

Mine is the APOGEE brand that has a submergible collector and can switch between artificial and sunlight, its an essential item in my opinion for this work. I bought mine from the states so you shouldn't have any probs.

Greg

[raaden]

I have seen and even used the apogee instruments, and until about a year ago was going to purchase one. Then I read in more than a few technical journals that it's spectral response was quite off on a few different areas, the second most off region was the 400-450 region which is (arguably) the most important for coral propagation. The one good part of the apogee was that it does read the 365-400 range so I am not sure if that makes up for it or not.


I haven't been able to find any graphs like this for the Li-Cor meter, to compare if it is any better or worse than the apogee. This was the biggest reason why I have held off on buying one, but I can tell from my internal PAR meter (eyes/deductive reasoning) that I do have an overlighting condition; although not all corals seem to be negatively affected by it.

[mr.wilson]

Even though the sunlight has traveled 94 million miles to get to your vat, it's quickly diffused and refracted by turbidity (from my crude backyard experiments). How much varyation in light intensity and quality have you measured in your vats, according to depth and turbidity levels?

Do you feel that the turbidity of nutrient-rich water (zooplankton & phytoplankton and some detritus) will adequately diffuse the excess light? I guess the problem of heat transmission still requires shade cloth, and it would be hard to regulate turbidity with any accuracy and consistency.

Would it be wise to create a shelf for corals that can be raised or lowered according to available lighting (seasonally or from minute to minute).

On a harebrained tangent...you could string the shelf up to a rotating camshaft above it and have the tray move up and down for water movement, surface agitation, detritus suspension, aeration, coral slime removal, and nutrient delivery (to the polyps). A single, (very long) cam could operate a long line of vats with little energy required, no stray electrical current, no salt creep, and keep the work area free of electricity. I guess the shelf full of coral would be quite heavy. It's one of those ideas that starts off as a joke, then you start thinking...

[raaden]

I haven't had a chance to test the light levels in the water yet, but I do like the "idea" of that cam lifter arrangement. If you think about it is pretty much the same idea as generating a gentle wave in the tank (from the corals perspective).

AFA heat goes you would have to stop the light from getting into the tank to eliminate the heat issue, and I can vouch for the fact that there is ALOT of heat getting into the tanks on a sunny day.

[crazzy]

Updates Please?

[raaden]

Updates... well it is a good news bad news sort of thing this time around.
The good news is that overall things are going well, corals are doing really good, but not growing as fast as I thought. The main reason I think is that there is more light than there should be. Right now it is offset by the ultra dense phyto in the vat and keeping the water level pretty high. Can't really complain though because everything looks so good.

The worst of the bad news is that the first epoxy vat sprung a leak; well really it sprung a bunch of them. Small hairline cracks along the grain of the osb. I am hoping it was just because of not doing a wash coat first, but I haven't had a chance to really tear it apart to see what it looks like. The silver lining of it is that even with the leaks the vat had it held up well. The osb didn't deteriorate like plywood would, and even with water running down the side of it it didn't soften or bulge. I think I am going to put down another set of sheets and reline them (with a wash coat this time).

I have two other vats online now both epoxy, but I have since gone with a sky blue color instead of the light gray. The original poly vat is holding up well, and has surprised me quite a bit. The coating seems to be holding up well and has handled snails, fish and the occasional brush without a problem. If it came in a lighter color I would consider using it for the rest of them, but it is very dark and I am sure it was part of the problems I had with the vats sucking up the heat. The light blue vats don't seem to be heating up as much in the sunlight as the others did. They are also noticably lighter during the day.

The other major piece of bad news is that I had no idea how much energy the sun is putting out, and how it would affect the ecosystem. Not just how it affects the corals, but everything else as well. The phyto bloom has just not gone away, no matter what I have done, and I have tried just about everything. The corals seem to be okay with it and parameters are pretty good. I can't get ph above 8.3 but again it doesn't seem to be affecting things in a bad way.

This coming weekend I am going to do my first mass fragging which should produce about 200 frags. I have been fragging a few corals here and there to see how they respond, but haven't pruned back a whole tank yet.

Other than that it has just been incredibly busy keeping up with all of the little things that come up constantly, and I do mean constantly.

[njdevilsfan]

raaden thank god you are posting again
i followed your thread the whole time and was crushed when you stopped posting in oct

[Rustylugnuts]

Good to read from ya again raaden .

[H20ENG]

Hi Brian,
I was thinking about your OSB the other day, while helping my father in law put up siding. One side had sort of a waxy feel to it, and this was smoother than the (dry) side. Did you notice this on your sheets? I wonder if even a wash coat would penetrate it?

Just thinking out loud that plywood may be a better option if the OSB is coated at all.

I forget if you tried UV for your phyto bloom or not?

Thanks for the update, havent checked the red house in a while

[mr.wilson]

I'm not sure if OSB has a wax coating but if it does, you can remove it with a weak acid. I would consult with a professional stripper like melev.

[GreshamH]

Originally posted by H20ENG

I forget if you tried UV for your phyto bloom or not?

biological would be the best option IMO. Rotifers should do the trick.

[RedSonja]

Originally posted by mr.wilson
I would consult with a professional stripper like melev.

Taken out of context, that sentence is quite funny.

Raaden what kind of light readings are you getting? Just curious as to how/if the meter is working out.

-Sonja

[raaden]

Boy oh boy, I let the thread go for a few weeks and it goes to heck... People talking about strippers, shameless plugs (tsk tsk GreshamH jk I do agree with the biofiltration).

I haven't gone to UV, but I have started skimming and that is slowly clearing it up. Honestly I am not terribly concerned with the phyto since the corals all look good and should be getting fed well. The additional shade is also a good thing and the pod population has skyrocketed in the last few weeks. Lately if I pick up a rock I end up with pods crawling on my hands.

The OSB and epoxy are my biggest concerns right now. The OSB does have a rough side and a slick side. The rough side has a faux texture to it. The texture comes from the (wax) glue that holds the pieces together. The slick side does not have as much glue on it, but it also has really large voids from where the wood pieces are pressed together. The first two vats were done by coating the rough side. The last one was done by coating the slick side and it was much more difficult to fill in the voids, but I am hoping that because of the actual wood surface it will adhere better. The wash coat on the slick side was a little better looking and seemed to penetrate better. The problem with strippers (in general) is that once you use them you can never get the surface completely clean (try taking that out of context but I can't comment directly... the wife would kill me ) and they tend to leave a greasy coating that I am pretty sure the epoxy will not adhere to.

After the post last night I spent some time picking at the coating on the ruptured tank and between the rough side of the OSB and the epoxy there was a chalky substance around the area where the leaks were. This lead to a chicken and egg discussion that got out of control. Here is what we came up with:

1. The epoxy had some sort of reaction with the glue and the adherence was comprimised
2. The epoxy itself did not cure correctly and the bottom surface stayed chalky
3. The epoxy is not completely waterproof without a top coat and the chalkiness was actually evaporated saltwater buildup
4. The chalkiness is a complete red herring and came from water getting through the cracks with no indication of failure provided

The crack point did raise up off the OSB separating from the base a small bit indicating that there was separation of the epoxy from the osb. Strangely though other areas seemed to be adhered well. Which caused which is the better question.

I think plywood is a better medium for adherence of the epoxy, but if there were to be a leak I think the plywood would catastrophically fail with the walls falling apart and dumping water. This sounds weird, but the OSB did fail gracefully, and if the chalkiness is residue from saltwater it must have occured over weeks or months.

One last thing is that this vat only had two coats of epoxy and no wash coat. The subsequent vats have a wash coat, plus 4 full coats of epoxy and I am hoping this incident will not happen with them.

[raaden]

Light levels have been interesting. According to the lit on the plastic I should be getting 72-75% light transmission through both layers. It is much more like 55-60% and is variable depending on the conditions. On sunny days the percentage is higher than on cloudy days. Which is really opposite of what I would like, but...

I have a decent amount of trees around which are currently shading all but the highest point of the sun so I have quite a fluctuation during a sunny day. Overcast days are more consistent with light levels throughout the day, and surprising even on mostly cloudy days light levels still reach about 200 on the water surface. On clear days light levels exceed 250 1' under clear water, and once the mist evaporates off of the plastic they get close to 450-400 at 8" of clear water.

The way the tanks were (about 25-35% density) the light is cut tremendously even 3" into the water. You can easily tell this just be looking at it, but putting measurements to it it is even more pronounced. Currently the uppermost rack's bottom is about 4-5" below the surface of the water and the bottom rack is about 7-9". The bottom of the bottom rack even on a sunny day was getting about 60-80 and on a cloudy day it sometimes wouldn't even register. Since it has been clearing up 10-12% the readings have jumped quite a bit. The bottom rack on a sunny day is getting about 180-190 and the top rack is getting 240-275. I can't remember off the top of my head what they are currently on cloudy days but they are much better.

As it is right now the light seems to be fine for just about everything... even some stuff I didn't think could make it in a gh. I currently have galaxea, goniopora, tubastrea, and a few types of turbinaria, that I thought would never make it in the gh that are doing great... better than they were in my display tanks.

But the one thing that is blowing my mind is that neospongodes have been doing phenomenally. I never intended to try them this early on, but they were "replacements" on a recent order so I decided to give them a try knowing i could take them to my display if need be. They are doing great after a couple of weeks of acclimation have been fully extended for most of the day. The one thing dont seem to like is being buffeted when the fish feeding is going on.

[SmithErick]

Raaden, Do you have any updated pictures of your operation? I would love to see and possibly purchase since I am near your location.