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#1
08/29/2007, 08:53 PM
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Browning specimens and nobody can figure it out
I have had a reef tank for around two years now and I've learned a lot over the past 2 yrs but I'm still having some serious trouble. Somebody please help!!!!!
My Major concern is the discoloration and lack of polyp extension from my corals. I purchase 95% of my corals from Liveaquaria and when I buy them their bright beautiful specimens with incredible polyp extension. After about a month or so (often less) the corals start turning brown, having quite limited polyp extension if at all, and often begin having tissue recession. Some corals do OK, may have limited growth, or look good for a short time and then take a plunge for the worse. Even my beautiful white and yellow anemones have turned brown. Fortunately, not all corals die and some acutally look quite good. I've spent an incredible amount of blood sweat and tears on this tank (as we all do) and I don't know what else to do. I've purchased some of the best equipment/products, routinely tested virtually everything possible, done thorough research about reefkeeping, and still I cannot get my corals to color up and grow like I see in so many other tanks. Here's some details to my setup. **EQUIPMENT** 180gal tank Model #3 Mega flow sump filter (approx 20gal) DIY refugium (approx 35 gal) grow chaeto and now have figi gold in a container inside fuge Fluval 303 canister filter (I use chemipure in the fluval) coralife superskimmer (wet skimming usually) two 48 inch T5 nova extreme fixture 4 bulbs per fixture (216watts per fixture) two 420 nm and to 460 nm bulbs per fixture three 150 watt Ocean light HQI MH fixtures 10000k bulbs All bulbs changed routinely (no more than 1 yr old) Pinpoint pH monitor (calibrated every two weeks if not more) Refractometer All tests are done with Salifert test kits 18w coralife turbotwist UV sterilizer plumbed in with canister filter Kent 36 gpd RO/DI unit for all top off and mix water ***LIVESTOCK*** 2 small clowns 1 rabbitfish 1 purple firefish 1 blue chromi 2 damsels 2 pseudochromis 3 gobies 3 clams 5 anemones (sebae, 2 bubble, long tent, tube) wide range of corals soft, sps, LPS. 1 pistol shrimp 1 banded coral shrimp 1 scarlet skunk cleaner shrimp ***FEEDING*** I feed the fish live brine shrimp. When I don’t have any full grown live brine I feed frozen mysis or brine (no more than a half a cube once a day – that is equal to about the same amount of live brine that I feed). Corals get around 15 ml phytoplex and 15ml chromaplex with about 1/8tsp cyclopeeze twice a week. I target feed every now and then. Twice a week I feed the plate coral, shrimp, and anemones small pieces of squid yums. **SUPPLEMENTS I USE*** Kent Magnesium Kent Kalkwasser Kent Sr and molybdenum No trace elements – I’ve tried multiple but it’s had no effect on the corals Kent Coral-vite once a week as recommended Kent coral accel daily as recommended I tried stopping all supplements except ca and mg and there were no changes Kent pro buffer when pH is low Seachem reef builder to maintain alk Seachem reef plus dosed with plankton once a week Vita chem. Dosed at low dose (¼-1/2 recommended) with plankton. Also use vita chem in the water for growing the brine shrimp. ****WATER PARAMETERS*** ammonia 0 nitrite 0 nitrate 0 pH 8.0-8.3 alk 3.2-4.5 meq sg 1.023 ca 420-450 mg 1300-1350 sr 8-15 po4 0.05 - 0.5 It’s been difficult to keep low borate 10-12 temp 77-80 **MY FAILED ATTEMPTS AT SOLVING THIS PROBLEM** My first thought was the lighting – a logical start. I tried moving corals higher and lower in the tank – no change. I tried moving the lights closer to the water surface to increase the light – no result. I wondered if there was too much light so I put two layers of screen over the MH’s and decreased the photoperiod – no result. I tried different spectum bulbs in the MH’s 10k, 12k, 14k, and 20k – that was expensive but didn’t affect the overall color loss of the corals. My next thought was the food I was feeding the corals. I grew live phyto and fed directly to corals. I grew rotifers and fed the corals live rotifers and baby brine. I tried a different dried zooplankton – coral frenzy. I fed more, I fed less – all with the same result – no impact on the polyp extension or loss of color. My next attempt at solving the problem was reviewing water parameters. I previously used distilled water and I wondered if there was something in there that was affecting the tank. I bought a kent RO/DI unit – no change. I tried using multiple different salt mixes – kent, IO, seachem – no change other than fluctuations in ca, mg, and alk with each different salt. I was considering that maybe the chemi pure was removing too much from the water so I tried using less and eventually tried plain carbon. Water quality decreased (minimally) when I stopped using chemi pure so I returned to using it. I also use a surface skimmer on the canister filter to make it more efficient at removing waste. Water flow is good IMO. I have two returns from the sump with a scwd to alternate flow and three gravity returns from the fuge. I moved the corals in and out of the flow with little results. I had a suggestion that maybe there were parasites irritating the corals. I tried multiple dips – revive, lugols, seachem – no change. I bought some pipefish in case the problem was redbugs – I agree it was a foolish move but I was desparate. To my disgust the problem didn’t go away and eventually the pipefish died from being in the wrong environment. I tried skimming more I tried skimming less. After many wet floors I gave up on fixing the problem with the skimmer. I now use a very fine mechanincal filter media in the sump and change it daily in an attempt to limit excess waste products. I now looked to the phosphate level that has given me so much trouble. I have no idea where the phosphate is coming from!!! About 4mo ago I did a random test for po4 and found it to be above 3 (oh god!!!) Previously I hadn’t tested for over 6mo because it had never been a problem. I’ve been battling this po4 level ever since. I’ve tried mulplte GFO’s with little results. I have two fluidized filters which I run up to 200g GFO each and the best I could do was get the po4 level down to 0.25 – that required changing the media at least once a week if not more.. At this point it’s obvious that the po4 is coming in from somewhere but I don’t know where. I started vacuuming the sand bed with each water change ( I do approx 20-25 gal water changes every 2 weeks by the way). When I set up the DIY fuge I used sand from my previous 75gal tank for a DSB. Since I didn’t vacuum the previous tank I wondered if that sand was full of detritus and dumping in po4. I completely removed that sand all together from the fuge. I grow chaeto in the fuge which requires thining approx 1-2 gal worth every couple weeks. Can chaeto release toxins?? – I’ve heard of that but cannot confirm the validity. I swithched to using kalk instead of calcium chloride to help precipitate po4 – this decreased the po4 level initially but it came right back. Could the po4 be coming from a supplement? Maybe, but all the products I use state they don’t contain phosphates or nitrates. Is po4 truly the reason for the loss of color and death of my corals – I doubt it but it’s my last idea to fix the problem. I've been using blue life phosphate remover lately. I drip the blue life directly into the skimmer over night. The po4 levels have been better 0.05-0.025 but the corals seem a bit irritated when I use the blue life. I am at a loss with where to go with this tank from here. I love it so much I don’t want to give up but I get disgusted every day when I look at my browning corals. Please help!! Here are some pics to provide some more details to my set up and the problems I’m having. here is a pic of a purple polyped montipora I've had for at least a year which doesn't extend it's beautiful purple polyps at all anymore and it's surface has turned a pale brown. There's also a pic of an acro which has had increasing tissue recession and extreme loss of color - it was bright blue when I bought it.  Here is a pic of my yellow sebae with blue tips which is now turning brown.  This is a pic of a beautiful blue acro (at least when I bought it) which is slowly turning more brown.  I have multiple other pics if your interested in seeing anymore browning specimens. I don't know what else to do. |
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#2
08/29/2007, 08:58 PM
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the H crispa is supposed to turn brown, that's an indication it's healthy, they often bleach when collected or shipped.
my best guess would be nutrients, your PO4 got up there for some reason and that's likely the cause of the browning. i know if i feed heavily a few times i can notice a browning in some of the more pastel colored corals in my systems. |
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#3
08/29/2007, 09:02 PM
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Also, the GFO works.......i did a little testing that you might wanna look over if you haven't already.
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...readid=1182318 also please feel free to give it a vote for thread of the month 
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#4
08/29/2007, 09:04 PM
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Whenever I change anything about the way I keep a particular coral, I allow 2-3 months to gauge the effect. Sometimes negative effects can happen sooner but in terms of coloring something up, judge a few months after the change. Also, corals love stability so let things stabilize completely (a few months of exactly the same husbandry with exactly the same products) then give the corals a chance to tell you what they want. In the meantime, try and research the specific environments of each of your animals so they can be permanently sited in an appropriate place in your tank.
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#6
08/29/2007, 10:10 PM
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I would agree with Jetcat- get the PO4, best to try again to get this under control. Yes, the sebae should be turning brown, indication of improving health. The majority of these are sold bleached. It's very close to that clam...
I would skip the phyto, though I might get some flak from this advice IMO it is just additional food going into the system that won't do any immediate good, it doesn't feed the corals directly. I would also skip ALL the supplements except ca, alk and mag. You really don't need anything else, and some of what you are/were using may contain unnecessary nutrients. For now while you are trying to get the phos under control feed only the fish and very minimally. Like Bookfish said, stability is very key with SPS. If you want to keep lots of SPS, a reactor is your best bet because it will help hugely with stability. You can keep very nice SPS tanks with just chemical supplements, but most people have a tendency to only supplement when the levels have fallen below what is optimal, leading to alot of fluctuation. If you intend to stick with the chems, supplement daily and test 2x weekly. Once you get an accurate idea of demand, you can test only 1 time a week while continuing to dose daily. How many GPH are you running for flow? This is very important for most SPS. I would recommend at least 30-40X tank-volume flow, and many folks are running far more than that. Are you using RO/DI? SG is a little low, best at 1.025. Better to keep things as they are as Bookfish stated. Constantly changing the corals position, lights, husbandry will lead to reduced growth and impair health. I would just reduce feeding, optimize stability, retry a GFO, bump up SG, increase flow if it is minimal, and see where that gets you. Good luck, I recently gave up on most SPS, I was tired. I lost power for at least a day, took me forever to get my reactor retuned, and by the end of 3 weeks had lost 90 percent of my SPS. I've decided it's too much hassle for me, I'm back to LPS and softies.
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All Your Coral Are Belong To Us |
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#7
08/29/2007, 11:19 PM
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Reefshadow, I agree and I also have very few SPS in my collection. I think I get everything I need from my LPS and they're easier, pest free and prettier IMO.
So here's my new bowerbanki named "Wonko the Sane" 
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#9
08/30/2007, 02:27 AM
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bookfish,
 That's an awesome coral. I'll have to looky for one of those. "Wonko the Sane" - Love Douglas Adams  Jlinz, I was going to mention the skimmer as well. It can help achieve the ability to feed more heavily, which in growing, healthy SPS is a good thing, but if you can't achieve enough nutrient reduction from the system, will lead to higher PO4 levels. Also I know alot of the food supplements claim low or no levels of phos and nitrate, but if the food isn't being utilized, it will break down into these compounds anyway. I see you have an RO/DI, I need to read more carefully I don't think chaeto will release toxins, so many people use it successfully for nutrient export. Of course if it dies and starts to break down it will put all the nutrients it used to grow right back into the system. If it's healthy I really doubt it's a factor in your problem. How old is your rock? If it's very old it could be releasing po4 back into the system, but I would look at overfeeding first before this. Good luck!
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All Your Coral Are Belong To Us |
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#11
08/30/2007, 08:20 AM
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My bet is on the phosphate as well. If you have measurable phosphate there's a good chance its worse than the test kit indicates.
I would keep rock cooking in mind as a possible solution. That's a big tank overhaul, so it would probably be the last thing I'd try. But it will work if phosphate is the problem. If you went this route, you might also think about replacing the sand at the same time. As reefshadow said, I'd check out overfeeding before anything. Even if you cooked the rock, if the issue was overfeeding you'd be right back where you are now in 6 months. Keep your chin up! Remember, problems happen much faster than problems are fixed! |
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#12
08/30/2007, 06:34 PM
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I really appreciate all the input everyone has provided. Thank you!!!
I think that the idea of the problem being from excessive nutrients and water param instability is logical. I didn't know just how much of an impact elevated po4 levels would have on the overall health of the corals but the feedback I've gotten is that it's quite significant. Lesson learned. My plan is this. 1) I'll feed the fish half of what I currently feed(if I feed any less their likely to turn on each other). Should I feed anything to the corals or not???? If so how much????? Phyto vs zoo??? If I don't feed the shrimp they start eating everything including snails, clams, and hermits. I'll feed the shrimp one tiny peice of aqua yums twice a week. 2) I'll dose only kalk to maintain ca levels, kent mg to maintain mg levels, and reef builder to maintain alk. I need input as to what everyone suggests for maintaining pH. In the past it's been difficult to keep the pH 8.1-8.3 so I started using Kent reef buffer. What are your suggestions for when I have a significant pH drop????? 3) I'll increase stability. For the next 3 mo I'll continue on the same regimen without moving the corals or significantly changing anything. I currently dose the mg 3X per week in equal doses to keep the level on an even keel. I've just recently started using kalk as opposed to calcium chloride so I'm still learning what daily dose is the best for stability in my tank. I'm not up for a calcium reactor at this point. 4)Continue to try to decrease po4 levels. I need a general concensus - Do I continue to dose blue life phosphate remover or not???? I'll restart the GFO as much as my phosban reactors can handle. I viewed the link to the GFO evaluation but I have more questions. Can a GFO truly decrease the po4 level to undetectable. When my po4 level would get down to about 0.25 the GFO wouldn't decrease it anymore. What is the capability of a GFO to decrease po4 when it is at low levels such as 0.01-0.2????? 5) Improve skimming. I didn't realize my skimmer was insufficient. I'd be willing to spend some money on the best skimmer I could get but I need your recommendations on brand and size!!!! Would an ozonizer significantly improve my situation???? 6) Increase salinity to 1.025 slowly over the next week. I've been shading the MH's lately. Any risk that there's too much light from them???? My flow circulates around 15-20 full cycles per hour. Return pump is a Mag drive 21 and in addition I have about 2/3 that much cycling in and out of the fuge to the main tank. I won't mess with the flow at the moment. That's my plan. Please suggest appropriate skimmer, would an ozonizer be worth the trouble???, how much and what do I feed corals, and how do I manage pH drop? (I was concerned the anemone was too close to the clam also but they don't seem to bother each other so I've let them be.)
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#13
08/30/2007, 06:59 PM
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#4 the answer is YES, the reason you fail to see a decline is as noted in the GFO thread, the rock has phosphate bonded to the rock and it's leeching back out. continue with the GFO and it'll pull all of the bonded PO4 from the rocks in due time. your system had elevated levels for some time, it gonna take as long to cure the problem as it did to make it.
on all the other stuff, I've seen tanks flourish that had everything under the sun dosed to them and it's my opinion that if you get your PO4 levels down your corals will color back up and i see no reason to change your other husbandry other then limiting the addition of the PO4. if you like dosing all that stuff, continue to do so, there are many many tanks out there that are successful that do, no reason your tank can't be one of those. the Ozone is defiantly worth while, it will make a remarkable difference in water clarity as well as reducing DOC in the system, that's a win/win. do read up on its use and fully understand it before you add it. when you do, a few days into it and you'll swear there is no water in the tank it'll be so crystal clear. |
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#14
08/30/2007, 07:43 PM
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Thanks for the info jet cat. Have you ever used blue life phosphate control? In my experience it's been much more effective at reducing po4 levels.
Glad to hear your so confident I will be able to restore the color of the corals with better po4 control. I'll do some research on ozonizers and look into getting one. Thanks. |
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#15
08/30/2007, 08:08 PM
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i use GFO, it has always worked to keep my reefs at <0.01ppm, after the test on the 180 the other week i have no doubts about it's ability to reduce levels.
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#16
08/30/2007, 10:02 PM
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Quote:
As for yout photos... The first coral is a wild or perhaps maricultured Montipora, IME they often lose their color and or morph to slightly different colors when placed in a closed systems, even with very good conditions. The second photo as was already pointed out is perfectly natural. The third photo does not look like Acropora to me. If I had to guess I'd say it's Heliopora coerulea (Blue ridge coral). Blue ridge coral often looks nice and pretty and blue when it's a little bleached, which is often how it's encountered in the trade. The reason for this is because the skeleton is blue, but I've never seen this coral have the bright colors created by fluorescing proteins that are often associated with many other corals. In short, a healthy specimen is tan/brown from zooxanthellae which covers up the blue skeleton of the coral and you're trying to maintain colors in corals/anemones that just aren't natural in the species you have. You don't need more stuff, you need less stuff. The crazy amount of supplements should stop. Amino acids, vitamins, the liquid foods, etc., are not only unnecessary but they could be doing some harm. The same goes for quick fix soloutions like the Blue Life PO4 remover (GFO is fine). I'd also suggest switching to baking soda and skipping all the Kent and Seachem buffers, especially since one of them contains a healthy amount of boron which could possibly have some undersirable effects. I seriously doubt too much light is an issue so I'd stop with the shading. If anything you'd probably benefit from 250w MH on a tank the size of yours. Keep feeding your fish what you've been feeding them, but I'd switch to using mainly cyclopeeze and mysis and stop with the brine shrimp since it' not all that nutritious. Also, be sure to rinse the mysis since the excess water can be full of pollutants. Lastly, if you want to upgrade something on your system a better skimmer might not be a bad idea. However 15-20x turnover rate is quite low to expect to have success with many SPS corals. So the one thing you seem to be disregarding could be one of the things limiting your succes the most. An ozonizer isn't something you need, but upping the flow quite a bit is IMO. However, you don't want all this flow coming from your return pump. In fact, the turnover rate in your sump is too great IMO, 3-5x is often a suggested rate and you're way about that which could be further limiting the efficiency of your skimmer. There's more, but I'll stop here for now so the two of us don't get overwhelmed... 
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#17
08/31/2007, 12:41 PM
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Well put. I actually do nothing but water changes and feeding and my corals love it. Of course I feed more than 1 million rotifers per day and change at least 25% per week religiously. Adequate flow is absolutely one of the biggest problems I see with many reef tanks and I'd agree with upgrading the flow in the display.
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#18
08/31/2007, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
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#19
08/31/2007, 01:20 PM
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I agree with most of the advice given here. Increased flow in the tank should help with polyp extension. You mention that you're running a Mag through a SCWD, but keep in mind that when people talk about 20-30x (or more) turnover, most don't take the return pump into consideration (no need for crazy return rates, 5-10x is more than sufficient).
Stop dumping all that stuff (and money) into your tank. At least one of those, the phyto, can be very high in phosphate. Depending on how you're growing the it, that might be the source of your high levels. Brine shrimp aren't a very good food source for fish..more like popcorn for humans. You're better off using the frozen mysis/brine combo. If you're feeding daily, try cutting back to every other day for a bit and see if it makes a difference. A better skimmer would probably help. Which one to buy depends on what you're willing to spend. Be sure to watch the equipment sale/trade threads here on RC for a good deal! Slow down, take a breath and relax. Nothing good happens fast in this hobby. Good luck!
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<°)>>< ~~~><<(°> Member of DFWMAS |
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#20
08/31/2007, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
In many tanks you will see some degree of PH fluctuation and unless they are large sudden swings I wouldn't worry about it so much. If you aren't running the fuge on an opposite lighting schedule from the tank, this can also help to somewhat stabilize PH. I really have to reemphasize the flow issue as some others are doing. It absolutely can't hurt, and may drastically help the situation. In addition to simulating a more natural environment for SPS, it will also help to keep deitritus and food in suspension so they can be carried to the skimmer for removal or feed the animals, and help keep dissolved oxygen high and CO2 low, which can also help with keeping the PH stable. Quote:
Sounds like you're on the right track!
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All Your Coral Are Belong To Us |
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#21
08/31/2007, 04:13 PM
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Maybe I overlooked it, but I didn't see anything about how often are you doing water changes. Rather than trying to correct poor water quality with more and more chemicals and filter media, just export the nutrient rich water and replace it with new. Might be worth trying the 5% 2X/wk routine for a while to see if it helps.
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#22
08/31/2007, 04:25 PM
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A good water change rarely hurts.
I like to do lots of big water changes on the premise that if, if something bad happens and I need to do a 50% water change instantly, it doesn't send the whole system into a downward spiral. Keeping the water changes large and regular helps the system parameters stay closer to new salt water. I also believe that if you eliminate what you spend in supplements and dosing products and spent it on more water changes, you'd get better results. |
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#24
08/31/2007, 05:17 PM
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Just want to clarify I do perform regular water changes. I change about 20 gallons every two weeks (maybe this is just not enough).
Point well taken regarding the fact that more frequent water changes could be more helpful and less costly than adding supplements. I'll up the water changes to 30gallons every week. I've also already decided to stop adding all supplements except kalk, magnesium, and a supplement to maintain alk. Everyone seem quite concerned that the flow is low so I'll also add some power heads to up the flow also. I truly appreciate everyones feedback. Jeremy |
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#25
10/21/2007, 11:52 AM
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Ok, since my last post I've made some major improvements.
1) upgraded skimmer to a Tunze 9015. Wow what a difference from a coralife! 2) Significantly improved water flow. Added Tunze wavemaker and added two maxijet 1200 powerheads with hydroflow water deflectors. 3) 25 gallon water changes each week instead of every two weeks. 4) Added 200mg/hr Red Sea ozonizer. Used coralife skimmer for reaction chamber. That coralife skimmer was good for something!! 5) Target feed cyclopeeze one to two times per week. No phytoplankton. 6) Stopped dosing all supplements except magnesium and kalk. 7) Limiting pH fluctuation by dosing kalk each night. Continuing to light fuge 24/7 for max nutrient export. 8) Phosphate levels finally under control!!!! For the last three weeks phosphate levels have been 0.015 or less!!! I've been using phosar in a fluidized reactor and just change it as soon as po4 levels begin to increase. 9) Removed shading from lights. Can't afford to upgrade lighting just yet. I'll let my tank stabalize for the next few months then add an acro and see what the coloration does. Thus far I still see dull coloration to all corals in general but I'm going to give it some time and see what happens. Polyp extension has improved but not in all the corals. Thanks everyone for your suggestions. If you think there is any other major areas that need improvement let me know. I want only the best for my tank and I want to see those brilliant bold colors in my corals. |
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