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#76
08/21/2007, 06:38 PM
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hahnmeister,
Since you seem to be the expert on everything, can you answer my question on the 8/18 /07 about skimmers!!! |
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#77
08/22/2007, 01:10 AM
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Oh, gosh... Im sure a few people would totally disagree with that statement. Sorry I overlooked yourpost. This thread wasnt intended to cover that topic at the time, but now that it has diverged...
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Or, as I type that... now I realize you may have been asking a different question...lol. I like recirculating skimmers... larger pumps in a smaller area, so it means more air working with the volume of water. Some single-pass skimmers have very low water throughput rates compared to the air throughput, but the tradeoff is that they are often still co-current designs, and the water doesnt get to interact with as much air as with a counter-current design. I like tall skimmers, but realize that this isnt ideal for most needlewheels. The cone shape bodies do allow for a taller skimmer with a relatively low water level, but I still like even taller (I like 4-6' tall). The best self-fed needlewheels on the market are short and fat though, with large pumps. This requires very fat cyclinders for turbulence reduction, either a BK or a Euroreef recirc 750 or 1000. Really, 2000lph of air could be just fine in an 8" diameter skimmer body... its all the water turbulence from the pump(s) though that is the problem, and having to deal with it in such a short distance, that makes bubble plates the best solution (so far). Height alone will also reduce turbulence, but works against the efficiency of the needlewheel pumps. With a bubble plate, or diffuser mechanism of some sort, the pump gets placed even lower on the skimmer than a traditional needlewheel (H&S or Deltec for example), so the skimmers get even shorter. Its like a vicious cycle where we will end up with the ideal skimmer being 12" tall, 18" in diameter, and with a pump that makes 3000lph of air with only 3000lph of water for 20watts, and have a 16" diameter bubble plate. That just doesnt seem appealing to me. My ideal? A 5-6' tall skimmer, running a needlewheel at the very bottom... bubble plate? Sure... why not, but no matter. Then force feed the pump air from an Alita or GAST linear pump. This way, you can easily feed 2000+ lph of air into a 8" diameter body through a single pump, and because its just air turbulence, rather than if you used 4 eheim needlewheels to get that amount of air, the turbulence will be minimal. With all that air running through the pump, little to no water turbulence will be present... the water throughput being replaced by the pump just needing to chop up all those bubbles. You will have an 8" diameter column with 2000lph of air (feed the skimmer in a recirc manner for counter-current operation)... something that a BK 300 needs about 2x the are to deal with. The wattage will be minimal as well(An Alita is very low wattage), and the output very reliable. Thats my ideal skimmer. Smaller tank? Okay... then a 6" diameter with a 1000lph linear air pump. Larger? Okay, then a 12" diameter (or a 18" base cone) with 4000lph of air going through it.
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"If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it" -Al Einstein |
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#78
08/22/2007, 01:24 AM
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hahn'ster...
i use a coralife sl-65 that does 65 liters per minute or 3900 liters per hour. fosters smith has it on sale for $56. much cheaper than an alita 60 ($200+).
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...and the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths and carp and anchovies and orangutans and breakfast cereals, and fruit bats and... Ben. |
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#79
08/22/2007, 02:47 AM
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Hahn
Have you done much testing with the force feeding of needlewheel or mesh mod pumps? My experince is that the meshmod pump can take a lot more forced air than the std needlewheels. However there appears to be a limiting factor on the amount of air that can be chopped up by the needlewheel - it easily cavitates and with the mesh mod - at some point air is just forced through the mesh faster than it can be chopped up. As you indicated earlier the greater water pressure acting on a needlewheel pump in a taller skimmer also reduces the air input(which is why i guess many needlewheel skimmers tend to be short) Increasing the amount of mesh made a difference to the temp that the pump ran at as well as increased noise. With the total running costs of the number of needlewheel pumps used + the feed pump for a tall skimmer, i am wondering if the simple Beckett skimmer might just regain its popularity? |
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#80
08/22/2007, 03:10 AM
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This is me and my company terminating our sponsor agreement with Zeovit at the end of the month for exactly this reason. Our advertising dollars are coming with us too. What a joke... mods, Klaus, Pohl, and Captive Oceans can promote what they want, where they want but if anyone else talks up another brand against theirs or asks too many questions its lights out. Yet they have the guts to say they left RC and started Zeovit.com because they were censored here?? I love the international aspect of Zeovit.com but they need to decide if they are going to be a Captive Oceans/KZ site or appeal to a broader group of products, manufacturers, and sponsors. |
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#81
08/22/2007, 09:23 AM
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the reasoning in that revolution thread over there, that they need to run dirty to work and that its ok if your 1300dollar skimmer doesnt start skimming for 3 days after cleaning. if i paid that money and my skimmer took longer than an hour to start skimming after cleaning id be angry.
and why is the moderator suggesting replacing the becket head with a different version i thought the skimmer worked better than the BK? sounds like the BK works better to me. i cant understand it. |
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#82
08/22/2007, 10:36 AM
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Apparently it is patented. I have one of these skimmers but I still dont understand what it is supposed to do. |
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#83
08/22/2007, 10:50 AM
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You should check this out from the above pdf from tunze... < It can be observed that when air bubbles are produced proteins are absorbed immediately. In practice it can be observed that the absorbed matter is torn off the air bubbles again by skimmers with a high construction. For this reason, all TUNZE® DOC skimmers have very short reactors with a high air output. >>quote |
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#84
08/22/2007, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
There is plenty of science out there that clearly says that SOME of the proteins we are trying to get rid of take quite a bit of tome to attach to the bubble. I'll concede that most of what we are trying to remove by skimming will attach almost immediately...but if that attraction is so strong that the DOC's will stick immediately, why would they then "tear off" if left on for too long? that makes no sense...if that were the case it would be impossible to skim dry! It realy irks me when company's just make up something that sounds good just to sell their skimmers!! Ask jnarowe how horribly his 6' tall skimmer works  
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Jeff |
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#85
08/22/2007, 01:18 PM
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they are french cant remember the name all hand milled. |
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#86
08/22/2007, 01:20 PM
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I hear you... it's pretty logical that there'd be some variation in the strength of the bonds that the DOC form with the bubble.... Every manufacturer thinks its products are the best, and every reefer thinks his mods are the best. There are plenty of opinions to go around.
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#87
08/22/2007, 04:41 PM
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B.R.M. - The in my avatar is the R-50-TN, the one that I have is the V14-44.
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#88
08/22/2007, 05:39 PM
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I wonder how they have 'observed' the absorded matter being torn off the air bubbles anyways.
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"If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it" -Al Einstein |
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#89
08/22/2007, 05:49 PM
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Well, I did try to sent PM's to the two mods after they censored my questions in the first place. I brought up the exact idea that I should be able to question the mfg, that I was doing so in a general forum, and that 'consumers have the right to know'. Then I got banned. Oh well... I have been reinstated. It seems that some mods are more gestapo, and others are the exact opposite. Too bad for the good ones that it may cost them sponsors.
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"If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it" -Al Einstein |
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#90
08/22/2007, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Another thing to consider with 'force-feeding' is that the venturi is no longer a passive element, and that the greater amount of air being introduced at this point can end up restricting the water intake of the pump too much. Force feeding is best done without a venturi... just a water and air inlet... so the pump can still get enough water. A meshwheel eheim 1262 w/o a venturi can easily handle over 2000lph of air, chopping it into fine bubbles and pouring it out the other end like shaving cream... so little turbulence that a bubble plate isnt even really needed. The only benefit of the bubble plate on such a tall, force fed skimmer would be if it was an ATI-like design, because then the bubbles would start from the bottom of the skimmer. A readitional needlewheel design with a downward facing elbow wouldnt even work... so the bottom 6-10" of the skimmer would be wasted. But the bubble plate is no longer a turbulence reducer in this use... You could just have a bottom pump input and a central tube... like the smaller H&S or AquaMedics, of the Fauna Marin Ultraskims.
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"If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it" -Al Einstein |
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#91
08/22/2007, 06:12 PM
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the Zeovit.com-Mods delete my postings.... so we have now a sponsor-Forum in zeovit.com.... @IanJ PHP Code:
 regards... Klaus
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klaus Jansen |
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#93
08/22/2007, 10:54 PM
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#94
08/23/2007, 08:42 AM
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preferential? perhaps... the way it is said also helps too. there is suggesting, and then there is pushing.
jmo. any updates on the skimmers from taiwan?
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red|house|blog "i like bubbly, and i love animals - so it works out well" "there are a lot of people out there who think they have a modern house simply because they have alot of steel in it" |
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#95
09/09/2007, 01:33 PM
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Well, back on this thread. It seems KZ is already threatening to sue ATB if they export their skimmers to the US. The crazy thing is... maybe that German patent also covers US, but then wouldnt an english version be needed, even for the DE patent office? As of yet, I havent seen a US patent. not so long ago, on this thread, Pohl claimed to have no problem with ATB:
http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthr...t=9231&page=20 "@Hanhnmeisterz, sorry but: 1. ATB is a friend of mine and take the conical shape to his skimmer one jear later as in our skimmer, we make the first 2005, he make the first in the end of 2006. He make only a small buisness in Austria and we have no problem with him. 2. We have no bekett in our skimmer." Yet now, it seems KZ does have a problem with Anton and ATB despite previous claims. How long before KZ tries to shut down every other beckett skimmer made in the US then? Even if they just enforce the 'cone design'... how? Every skimmer on the market uses a cone design at one point or another in the body. ATB skimmers use a cone from the very bottom up to the neck. KZ'z use one that starts a few inches from the bottom up to the neck. Bubblekings, ATI's, Deltecs, Octopus, AquaEuros... they all use cones as well.... instread of being 18" tall, they are only 2 or 3" tall, to serve as reducers from the body to the neck. They all serve the same purpose... just some work better than others. If I take a 8" base, 4" neck, 18" tall cone and put it on top of a 36" tall, 8" diameter cylinder, I think I have proven my point. I could see a design patent on this, but not a utility. Of course it would make sense for KZ to have a design patent... with specific model info so nobody could make an exact copy of their skimmers like how Octopus makes copies of the CPR bakpak. But a general utility patent on a cone shape skimmer? Come on... so does that mean Klaus's new Supermarine is going to be restricted as well? My advice for KZ would be to drop it. If they dont want ATB to use the cone shape, then they should provide ATB with specs of what would be an alright cone shape design (unless ALL cones are their patent now, in which case... watch out everyone!). If all ATB has to do is move the cone transition up a couple inches, or down a couple... then ATB has options. Otherwise, provide a US patent number! And even at that, KZ may end up going to court and losing their patent... much like when SLS tried to go after Icecap.
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"If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it" -Al Einstein |
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#97
09/09/2007, 01:49 PM
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smart of anton to develop the pyramid skimmer for the time being. i hope this goes smoothly...we dont need a skimmer feud between two companies with great products.
jmo. eric
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red|house|blog "i like bubbly, and i love animals - so it works out well" "there are a lot of people out there who think they have a modern house simply because they have alot of steel in it" |
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#98
09/09/2007, 02:48 PM
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I came home to this!!!!
  
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#99
09/09/2007, 02:50 PM
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Paulairduck, Im glad its working out for you. If you see the direction this thread has taken, it has little to do with the actual performance of the skimmer.
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"If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it" -Al Einstein |
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#100
09/09/2007, 02:52 PM
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i think we all agree their skimmers work. |
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