1,000 GPH

[sm007h]

but look at the rest of his system....
he has at least one 90 elbow, and two splits of loc-line at 1/2" ID.
His piping is 3/4" (you can see that on the elbow).

That's why I used 6ft instead of 4ft.
How are you figuring that he only has 4ft of head loss? It might even be more than 6ft depending on what's going on under the water that we can't see.

I couldn't find the flow charts for those pumps.
How did you figure that the difference between 4ft and 6ft head loss on that pump is 140gph?


EDIT: http://www.reefcentral.com/calc/hlc2.php

[mothra]

Salty:

Your pump is probably a little larger than needed. Without seeing the pump curve (which by the way, AquaEuroUSA doesn't publish) and knowing all the specifics about your plumbing it's impossible to know how many GPH it's actually pumping.

The above could (most likely) be contributing to the bubble problem. I would also take the pump apart and clean it to make sure nothing is plugging it up.

Lastly, and this is IMO - I don't like AquaEuroUSA pumps. Judging from all the issues with their skimmer pumps they're not very good for use in saltwater. The fact that your's is a "pond" pump may be a red flag. And why the heck don't they publish a pump curve?!?

[Hop]

I looked on the box of one of my gen-x pumps

I'm not trying to make this a big flow or whos right or wrong debate. Just make sure that both sides of the arguement are heard for ssalty Ulitimately he needs to decide based on good information from both sides of the arguement

[sm007h]

Originally posted by Hop
I looked on the box of one of my gen-x pumps

I'm not trying to make this a big flow or whos right or wrong debate. Just make sure that both sides of the arguement are heard for ssalty Ulitimately he needs to decide based on good information from both sides of the arguement

Totally agree, Hop
I was curious about where you getting the numbers, not challenging you Although, I'd be surprised if their entire line of pumps had the same curves, I guess it's possible and the best we've got to go on.

Actually, SSalty, post the figures from your pump's box.

Hop and mothra, you can see a good amount of his plumbing in the picture with the elbow in it. That 3/4" mark tells us his piping and his loc line size. Look at all that reduction and there's no way he's only got 4ft of head loss unless his stand is only 8 inches tall

Let's see: a typical stand is around 30"?
and a 55 gallon tank is 24" high?
add another foot head pressure for at least one elbow
another foot pressure for the 3/4" plumbing and can we add more for the loc line?

We're at 6+ head and climbing...probably around 500ish flow?
(which admittedly is too much for your tastes, I know )

At least with this part we can figure that he needs a pump with around 250ish @ 6ft head to get at 3-5x turnover rate?

http://www.reefcentral.com/calc/hlc2.php
EDIT: WOW!
I figured 5ft of vertical, 1ft of horizontal, 3/4" plumbing, one union, one elbow, and two outputs...11ft of head! I didn't even think it would be that high...hopefully you agree that it's better to be on the high estimate side than the low? If anything, it's between 10-11ft, not much more off than that. WHAT? I don't know why the calculator changes head pressure calculations for each pump? That doesn't make any sense. Shouldn't make any difference what kind of pump you use, head pressure is head pressure...unless I'm misunderstanding how to use that calculator.

[mothra]

sm:

First off, I don't completely trust that calculator.

That said, the frictional losses through the fittings are dependent upon velocity. Less flow = less pressure drop, therefore the calculator iterates until the difference between what the pressure drop should be at a given flow and what a given flow at the pressure drop is basically 0.

[Hop]

I don't trust the calculator anymore. It's good for estimates, but when I set up my big tank the first time it was 1500gph off... I didn't beleive it either until I filled a 5 gallon bucket at the end of the run and did the math. I even used a tape measure and rounded up on everything for the calculator.

[sm007h]

I don't believe it either
That's what the 2nd edit was for

Well, we *know* it can't be right in this case because his pump is rated at a *max* head of 8 1/2 ft

[SSalty]

I really do appreciate all of the trouble you guys are going through to check out the pumps capabilities and offer your opinions.

Heres the deal: If you have seen my other post about the rust, this only gives me more of a reason to change pumps. There is rust coming out from inside the pump (quite a bit)........ Which I honestly just found by checking the specs that are printed on the pump.

So I will be getting a new pump for sure....

I have been in the SW hobby for a little of 5 months and I have experience LOTS of problems and if I haven't bailed out yet I don't think I will ever. I KNOW that I will be rewarded with patience and YES a good amount of money. I look at all of these "problems" as a learning experience and someday I am sure I can help somone else out that may encounter these same problems.

I thank you guys again

[mothra]

Salty:

Don't give up. A lot of people recently bought those skimmers/pumps and have not been happy, nobody could have known what would happen.

Lesson learned on this one, do your research before you buy the next one. 90% of the time RC is a better place to ask advice than a fish store, or if you have a local reef club better yet (join it). Spending a little more up front usually saves you from having to buy twice, so do your homework for the next pump and get a good one. Once it's up and running smoothly you'll know it was money well spent.

Eheim, Iwaki, Posideon, and Tunze all make quality products, to name a few.

[SSalty]

Thanks for the words of encouragment......

What should I do in the meen time until I find a new pump?. I am really worried about the rust coming out. Should I take it out now and just run powerheads in the main tank. I only have 2 clowns, a clown goby, and a shrimp also, 70 lbs of liverock. Would I be fine without a filter for awhile?

[sm007h]

Yes, you'll be fine without using your skimmer.
You can either use the pump from your skimmer or just shut the flow off and use powerheads to keep your tank circulated.

If you call aquaeuroUSA they should replace your pump fairly quickly as they just received their shipment.

[SSalty]

I am not going with another aquaeuro, chances are it will happen again. I want my money back and get a different brand.

[sm007h]

That's your choice, just keep in mind that the reason it happened is because the pump manufacturer didn't epoxy the exposed metal parts. They contacted the manufacturer and the new pumps are epoxied so there isn't a chance it will happen again.

I don't know how much you spent on the pump, but those are around $40 and the pumps we've been talking about are ~$150+ (for comparison, the volute *alone* on my GRI 510 was $65! :O). You could try the used forums and go from there...maybe something like a mag pump you could pick up from someone used for not too much money.

[SSalty]

150+????

I can get a Eheim 1250 for under 70$ on Liveaquaria

[SSalty]

150+????

I can get a Eheim 1250 for under 70$ on Liveaquaria

[sm007h]

Originally posted by sm007h
the pumps we've been talking about are ~$150+

I don't remember mentioning an eheim 1250?

the eheim 1250 is rated at ~300 ft @0 head. and has a max head of 6.5 ft...if that's enough flow for your needs then that'd be the pump to get. Eheims are great little pumps. If you get a larger eheim, however, you can dial it back without damaging the pump, which will ensure you have enough flow rather than too little.

[SSalty]

Originally posted by sm007h
I don't remember mentioning an eheim 1250?

the eheim 1250 is rated at ~300 ft @0 head. and has a max head of 6.5 ft...if that's enough flow for your needs then that'd be the pump to get. Eheims are great little pumps. If you get a larger eheim, however, you can dial it back without damaging the pump, which will ensure you have enough flow rather than too little.

Do all Eheims have that option?

[RichConley]

Originally posted by sm007h
If you must know where I came up with that, a rule of thumb is to add a ft of pressure per 90 elbow and a few feet of vertical height since I'm assuming you use a normal height stand. I don't consider your pipe diameter, but I'm going to have to guess that it's not 2".

There are charts that show exactly what fittings add as far as pressure goes. I can assure you, a 90' elbow is nowhere near 1 ft of head. Its pretty much the equivalent of 1 ft of horizontal run.


There IS a consensus that 20x sump-to-tank is much higher than needed, and 50x through your sump is absurd.

[sm007h]

Originally posted by RichConley
If you're going to give advice, atleast understand what you're giving advice on.

This thread was going just fine without any personal insults.
If insults over facts are best way you can convey your opinion, then why should we listen to it?

If you wanted to be convincing in the slightest, why not post the charts you're referring to? Your "assurances" aren't going to cut it...

...especially since you stretched the truth on what anyone was saying.

No one claimed that 20x sump turnover was fine.
20x sump turnover would be if his "1000 GPH" pump were pushing what it claimed on the label and had 0 ft head pressure :O

Nice try, though.
First hit on google:

Keep in mind that every turn the water takes as it returns to your aquarium increases head and reduces flow. Keep tight turns to a minimum. A good rule of thumb if using 1/2" to 1" I.D. tubing is to add one to two feet of head for every 90 degree elbow or tee on the return side of the pump. The smaller the diameter of the tubing, the MORE head you should add.

-- http://www.aquariumpros.com/articles/headpress.shtml

I already pointed out that he's using a 3/4" 90 degree elbow.
You implied that *all* elbows are the same...when in fact they are not.

That's how to refute an argument with *facts* rather than insults.

[RichConley]

How many "rules of thumb" in this hobby are actually correct? 5%?


http://www.watergarden.com/catalog/_pumps/friction.html


theres one chart. Like I said, elbows CAN NOT be directly translated to head loss. They can be translated to equivalent runs of straight pipe with friction loss.

In this specific case, a 90' elbow results in .4 feet of head, not 2. If he were to move up to 1" pipe, it would result in .1 ft of head.



WHERE did I imply that all elbows are the same? I most certainly did not.




An interesting note, is that in a LOT of cases, two 45' elbows are actually worse than a single 90.

[sm007h]

Originally posted by RichConley
How many "rules of thumb" in this hobby are actually correct? 5%?


http://www.watergarden.com/catalog/_pumps/friction.html


theres one chart. Like I said, elbows CAN NOT be directly translated to head loss. They can be translated to equivalent runs of straight pipe with friction loss.


WHERE did I imply that all elbows are the same? I most certainly did not.

What *exactly* is your point?
Are you debating whether he has 4ft or 6ft head?
Or just trying to prove me "wrong" in my *estimation* (thereby ignoring the general, and correct, point that his pump is not pushing 1000 GPH due to head loss)?

The chart you posted illustrates that a 3/4" 90 is equivalent to 2 straight feet of friction. So what does that do to his head loss? And if you're going to calculate it all out then might as well figure in the tubing and couplings and loc line splits/dual outlet, right?


Short and sweet version: how much head loss do you think his pump is pushing against?

[sm007h]

Originally posted by RichConley
WHERE did I imply that all elbows are the same? I most certainly did not.

I can assure you, a 90' elbow is nowhere near 1 ft of head

According to formal logic, your sentence implies *all* elbows since you didn't state differently.

I don't know if you're itching for a fight or bored, but I'm not going to let you drag me down into something that isn't going to be profitable to anyone. So unless you have any information to give rather than bickering over petty points, I don't see much point in responding any further.

[RichConley]

54" to the top of the tank, minus 12 for sump height, so 42 inches. With all fittings and such, maybe 10' equivalent of horizontal run (2' vertical equivalent).

Thats 66", or 5.5 ft. The GenX4100 moves roughly 750 gph at 6 ft. So hes got maybe 800gph, or 15x turnover going tank-sump, or 40x through the sump, which is entirely too much.

[RichConley]

Originally posted by sm007h
According to formal logic, your sentence implies *all* elbows since you didn't state differently.

Saying something about all elbows does not imply that all elbows are the same.

In almost every single situation, and elbow does not equal 1 foot of head height. That doesnt mean they are the same.

[sm007h]

Your first post in this thread was an insult directed to me.
The rest of your posts are attempts to "prove" me wrong.
I'm not sure what your intent is, but you're not providing helpful information...I can't keep correcting your misinformation all day.

The figures you keep using are estimated on the low or high end, depending on which one will help your point more. Your math above isn't even accurate, and neither are the base numbers you're using for a Gen-X 4100 pump!

GX4100

Gen-X Submersible water pump

1085 GPH
9.2ft maximum lift
UL approved
Ceramic Shaft
1 year guarantee against manufacturer defects.
PSI Rating 3.98
5/8" and 1" ID Hose fittings included.
750 gallons at 3' Head
650 gallons at 5' Head
Power Consumption 70 Watts

-- http://www.reefexotics.com/gen-x_submersible.htm

His tank turnover is closer to 10x @ 5ft head...ironically, you claimed I was wrong in my calculation but you came up with 5.5ft as opposed to my off the cuff 6ft?

Are you going to apologize for slamming me for not knowing what I was talking about but coming up with the same amount of head pressure anyway?