haven't had a tank in 9 years. want exbert opinions, please help!

[cilyjr]

i had a community marine tank about 9 years ago (during my college years). it wasn't spectular but i enjoyed it. i had to break it down and sell off what i had due to moving and starting a career. now that i have a little more money and time i want to start again. there is so much new stuff that wasn't available to me before and i want opinions from experienced ppl. Here is a list of what i am purchasing this weekend (my goal will be a reef tank in 2 years, i just want to start with a few community fish like tangs and other more hearty fish to start ) this is
1. 46 gallon tank with stand
2. 1 50/50 bulb
3. Aquarium Systems SeaClone Protein Skimmer
4. Fluval 305 Canister Filter
5. Marineland Stealth 200 Visi-Therm Submersible Aquarium Heater
6. Saltwater Master Liquid Test Kit and Hydrometer
7. instant ocean and about 3 inches sand
8. a net and a vac for the sand

remember i have nothing and want to do this right. also i want to hear what ppl think about buting some precycled sand. in the past i would bring a 5 gallon bucket and ask for some water from a local store. that store no longer exsists. and would the big chains do the same? thanks

[meco65]

I would get about 50 or so pounds or Live Rock and Aragonite sugar grain sand about 90lbs for a 46 bow should be about 3inchs deep, Than about 20lbs live sand from LFS to seed. The rest of the stuff sounds good but the lights will have to be upgraded for most corals.

[meco65]

Also you will want to get a better skimmer. Like a (coral life 125)
http://www.esuweb.com/advanced.asp?ESUSubCompany=Coralife&SearchQuery=super+skimmer
And a RO/DI unit will help a bunch.

[sir_dudeguy]

just want to start with a few community fish like tangs
1. 46 gallon tank with stand


Sorry, theres no tangs that will be good in a 46 gallon tank :( Sure, theres plenty of people that put them in 46, but imo and many others here, thats not good at all for the fish. It will just cause problems down the road.

2. 1 50/50 bulb
Since you're not doing a reef for a couple years, dont even worry about the lights for now. Just get whatever normal output fluorescent bulb comes with your setup (or whatever the cheapest strip light is) and maybe just get that bulb as a 50/50 (half actinic blue, half 10K white daylight) This will be for color only, as normal output fluorescents (NO fluorescents) dont do anything for growth on corals...but you dont need to worry bout that for 2 years. Having strong lights is only gonna run up your electric bill for right now. Get those when you're ready for them.

4. Fluval 305 Canister Filter
Nowadays, filters arent really the way to go as far as filtration. In fact, the media that goes into canisters, hang on back filters, and wet/dry filters can and quite often do cause problems (high nitrates) which will be very bad for a reef. For fish only tanks they're fine, but once you want to go reef, you'll have to take those out and re-cycle the tank all over again...so basically start over.

The new(ish) thing for filtration is live rock. No, it doesnt get up and wald around lol. Its live because its got all the bacteria on it that filters your tank. This is known as biological filtration. (if you dont know, bio-filtration is the breaking down of amonia...starts as amonia, goes to nitrite, and then nitrite is broken to nitrates). To accomplish bio-filtration from live rock, you'll need 1-2 lbs of rock per gallon of water...so in your case 46 as a minimum..more is ALWAYS better.
5. Marineland Stealth 200 Visi-Therm Submersible Aquarium Heater
never used that one, but another really good brand is ebo jagger. Just make sure its a good brand and its fully submersible.

6. Saltwater Master Liquid Test Kit and Hydrometer
For test kits, get the salifert brand for sure. They're the best and most accurate (unless you wanna pay like 300 bucks for a real lab tester or something lol).
Hydrometers...they're not very good in my opinion...they're off a lot sometimes. Refractometers are a little more expensive (i've seen them for like 50 or so...i'm sure there's cheaper ones, but i dont know how good they are) But they're always accurate and they're pretty quick too.
7. instant ocean and about 3 inches sand
Instant Ocean salt (IO salt) is pretty good. I currently use it but when i order my next bucket i'm getting the Reef Crystals Salt. Its actually made by IO but supposedly better (has more of the trace elements or whatever in it). But IO is a good start, specially since you're not doing reef for a couple years...IO seems to be one of the cheapre ones. But that reef crystals stuff is for sale on drsfostersmith.com (i think thats it) for 45 shipped for a 160 gallon bucket (mixes 160 gallons of water i mean). In stores IO is 55 by me for only 150...and its not as good. So check out that site.

For sand...just go with plain aragonite sand. DONT get that "Arag-alive" crap. Its really not as good as people make it out to be, and in fact it can actually make some amonia spikes in your tank (which if its not new, thats bad)
8. a net and a vac for the sand
Good idea, only you shouldnt vacuum the sand to clean it. Thats up to your clean up crew, which consists of snails, shrimp, crabs (tho i dont like hermit crabs one bit as far as cleanup crew...they dont do anything) And theres a few others, but mainly snails...they're the main things you need.
remember i have nothing and want to do this right. also i want to hear what ppl think about buting some precycled sand
Again, thats the live sand...dont bother with it imo...too expenisve for QUALITY live sand, and eventually yours will turn live anyways..just get plain aragonite.
in the past i would bring a 5 gallon bucket and ask for some water from a local store. that store no longer exsists. and would the big chains do the same? thanks
Do you mean to "jump start" your tanks? if so, thats gonna do nothing whatsoever :) lol, dont even bother with that...theres no bacteria in the water...so technically, you're not even cycleing the water. You're really cycling the live rock.

[sir_dudeguy]

oh, and i forgot...WELCOME TO REEFCENTRAL!!! ;)

oh, and for fish REFERENCES look at liveaquaria.com and look under fish>marine...then look for ones you like. Only i say just for references because the quick facts stuff they have on their charts arent always accurate (and as far as i see...they usually arent, specially on bigger fish like tangs)

[sir_dudeguy]

Dang, srry i keep forgetting stuff.
Like mecco said, you'll need a skimmer. I'm currently running a coralife superskimmer on my 40 gallon tank which has about 6 gallons in a sump (tank underneith) so total its about 46-50...so far so good.

But i'd rather get the Aqua C Remora. I've got that on my 55 and its much better imo.

And LAST (hopefully) dont use tap water. Only use RO water, because tap water will very often have nitrates and phosphates right out of the faucet...RO water is like 25 cents a gallon at any water store (and walmarts) or you could get yourself an RO/DI unit, which will be more cost efficient in the longrun.

[PatMayo]

With the live rock you really don't need the fluval. As well you really don't need to touch the gravel in a SW tank. If you don't overfeed and maintain good husbandry your sand will stay clean.

In my opinion the "live sand" is really a marketing gimmick to sell sand at a higher price. Any sand will become "live" in short order from the live rock. Save your money.

I would take back the test kit you bought. It junk in my opinion. I would buy Salifert test kits. Accurate and easy to use. Generally you can't find them in stores but you can online at say Marine Depot. There are other places online that sell them as well.

Additionally, I would buy a refractometer. It's much more accurate than hydrometer.

I will give you a link at the end of the thread for the refractometer.

To save you some hassle and headache if you can afford it and have the place to store water buy a good RO/DI system and use it exclusively for your water. If you use tap water you could have a lot of algae problems.

http://www.refracts.com/Economydetails.htm

http://www.airwaterice.com/c=Dco1sl7YpHPOuMK5rE4rrK0Th/product/1TYPHOONIII

This thread will be a big help as well.

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=239848

Regards,

Pat

[BurntOutReefer]

(if you dont know, bio-filtration is the breaking down of amonia...starts as amonia, goes to nitrite, and then nitrite is broken to nitrates). "
YIKES!...so what happens to the Nitrates?

[drummereef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8203089#post8203089 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BurntOutReefer
(if you dont know, bio-filtration is the breaking down of amonia...starts as amonia, goes to nitrite, and then nitrite is broken to nitrates). "
YIKES!...so what happens to the Nitrates?


They build up in your tank and create uncontrollable aglae blooms! :lol:

[sir_dudeguy]

yep. Though nitrates arent toxic to fish, so in fish only systems you dont gotta worry bout em too much. Altho i think i read that they are toxic but only at like some rediculously high number (like 400 or something? lol i cant imagine them being so high tho)

This is one reason to do water changes (other reasons would include replacing trace elements and whatnot). And thats also what chaeto and other macro (or is it micro? idk lol) is for. They take up nitrates so they dont build up really high.

[cilyjr]

wow if only i new about the magic of forums the first time around.... and thanks sir_dudeguy for the breakdown of my list that will help alot!
i did know of live rock and if it's nitrate killing ability, and i know that when i do eventually add some the tank chemestry will go nuts again.
i also thought that the protien skimmer should help make the addition of the live rock less of a shock to the system.
p.s. if anyone Knows a great pet store in rhode island please let me know... and again thanks everyone. i'm gonna go and check out all these ideas.

[cilyjr]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8203009#post8203009 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by PatMayo


In my opinion the "live sand" is really a marketing gimmick to sell sand at a higher price. Any sand will become "live" in short order from the live rock. Save your money.



that is what i thought, would you go with sand or used crushed coral.
personally i like the finer look of the sand and am leaning in that direction.

[puffer21]

[welcome]

[Shagsbeard]

Live sand works for tanks with plastic castles and fake coral. You need to get the bacteria started from somewhere. When you get live rock, there's gobs of bacteria on it and in it. It's redundant and an expensive way to get more bacteria than you need.

I bought a fluval, and it's currently waiting to be cleaned out and put into storage. Don't need it... don't really want it. What it will evenetually be used for is: 1) fresh water tank, 2) Hospital or QT, or 3) circulation in something. It's not needed when liverock is one of the best balances between aerobic and anaerobic enviornments for bacteria we've yet found. You can run carbon with it to clean up your water... but you can run carbon in just about any high flow area.

Edit: You have so many good issues! Don't use store grunge to start your tank unless you have a truely exceptional store. Store tanks are notorious for picking up all sorts of nasty diseases and parasites. Think of a store tank as a public restroom. Find a nice healthy tank that has been established for well over a year in your area and trade for some of that sand. That's good grunge.

Also: Consider building a sump before you get started... it's a big plus to a tank and not too expensive to do. You get all your equipment out of view, the added stability of a larger volume of water, a place to grow critters that don't like to be around fish (but fish love to be around), a steady pH rather than one that goes up and down in night and day, a cosistant level in your tank... no evaporation showing.... all sorts of stuff. The down side is maintainance, but you seem like the type that would kind of like the hands on approach.

Also Also: Live rock is a must these days. It's what all of our advice is based on. Plan on getting 50-60 pounds of live rock at about $5 a pound or so right when you start your tank.

[cilyjr]

i have beenreading articles on sumps and overflow tanks all morning. i think this is the way i want to go. but i am unsure of how exactly this will provide filtration. what sort of bio bed should be in the overflow tank? or will all that come from live rock and a deep sand bed in the tank? i am sure i will find the answers in thses articles. also if anyone can think of some older post that would help me more please post a link. i would be greatful

[sir_dudeguy]

that is what i thought, would you go with sand or used crushed coral

I'd never use crushed coral cuz it jsut gets stuff caught in it. Well actually the sand that we use IS actually crushed coral, but its crushed into a sand rather than gravel/pebbles, you know? Sand is better (and looks nicer)

also thought that the protien skimmer should help make the addition of the live rock less of a shock to the system
just remembered...you can put the rock in like a rubbermaid tub (with saltwater of course) when you get it and just let it sit in there w/some flow and a heater for a while and that will cure it. That way once its done curing (which really means cycling) in the tub, you can just put it directly into your tank, so there wont be any problems. That'd be the one case you dont gotta worry bout spikes. But that does take a couple weeks to maybe 5 weeks max...sometimes it can be shorter or longer tho.

[cilyjr]

i have just been to a store and spent about an hour with a guy. i have decided to build my own sump tank. and i have now seen many different examples. here is a drawing of what i am planing...if i can figure out how to post it!!!
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=185855

[racrumrine]

Before you start buying a bunch of stuff, I suggest you read Natural Reef Aquariums by Tullock

http://www.amazon.com/gp/explorer/1890087009/2/ref=pd_lpo_ase/104-0899096-0143101?

Before I got back in the hobby, I had been out for several years. The beginning of the book does a great job of explaining all the older ways of doing things and how the hobby has evolved. It filled in a lot of gaps for me.

With that base, and running all your setup ideas by the folks on RC, you should be in pretty good shape. Another big help for you would be to join your local reef club. You'll get great advice and guidance.

As you know, this can be an expensive hobby. It's easy to blow $25 or more per gallon setting everything up. That said, you don't want to waste your money on stuff you don't need.

Best of luck,

Roy

[cilyjr]

yeah i know this won't be cheap

[cilyjr]

i bought my tank today. its a 46 gallon bow front. since i decided to use a sump i dropped it off to get drilled. i also sterted building my sump which is running a grand total of about 45 dollars (rather than 200-300 price on the megaflow prebuilt). i will post a few pics if anyone is interested when it is done.
i have a few questions after reading the post by waterkeeper (which is increadibily helpful). and talking to guys at the local aquarium stores of course everyone says the exacy opposite of the previous one.

1. has anyone used the Southdown play sand (recommened by waterkeeper)?

2. i have been told exactly the opposite by 2 people, sand bed of 4 inches or is that too much?

3. i was also told that live rock should rest on the bottom glass as if it rests on the sand it will create dead spots in the LSB because the rock "steals nutrients"???

thanks again for all the help!!!

[sir_dudeguy]

southdown is fine to use, tho i've never used it. in fact, they've stopped seling it here in arizona so i cant use it, but it is a good alternative i hear.

2...so one person has said that a 4 inch sandbed is good and another said its bad? It just depends on what you want from it. Like if you're getting something like garden eals (something i dont suggest...just an example) then they need the deep sand. and then there's also the benefits from having a deep live sand bed (tho i dont know what they are). IMO, just go w/how much sand you want. Thats never been a problem w/me. And for the record, you GENERALLY dont wanna go by what the lfs says. Im not saying they're wrong always, because sure they're right a lot...but they are more in it for the business and they dont care what happesn to you as long as they're getting your money. Some places will feed you crap stories about how certain stuff works just so they can sell you more stuff.

I've never heard that about the rock either tho. I have heard that you want it resting on the bottom so that if you get something that burrows it doesnt shift it too much and make a rock slide. Because if we were worried about creating dead spots in the sand do to having rock sit on it...wouldnt we be worrie about creating dead spots on the ROCK if we put it all the way to the bottom and have sand covering that few inches of rock thats under the sand? IDK...just doesnt make sense to me. I'm not saying that either is bad, but just make sure you get it to where its not gonna shift, which usually means just having it rest on the bottom, unless you dont get a burrower, then i wouldnt worry bout it...just make it sturdy, you know?

srry for all the rambling :)

[cilyjr]

yeah good call on the rock, i think for now with the sand maybe an inch or 2 will do the trick. i am still a week or so from actually adding water anyway.

[sir_dudeguy]

ya just make sure you rinse your sand out first. That will take away the cloudiness a bit

[cilyjr]

i have never gone with sand before i always used crushed coral that was tiny pebble sized. i have been kind of following waterkeepers plan, but adding the water before the substrate seems a little "crazy" for me whaddya think?

[rwana99]

Before you start building a sump, you should check out this site
http://www.melevsreef.com/allmysumps.html
It has various designs, as well as a how to section on building your own sumps.
It's really a must read if you are planning on building your first sump
Here's the sump i built with advice from this site

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/585/127627s100_0882.jpg

[sir_dudeguy]

I like adding the water before the tank. Mainly because i can fill the tank up and just mix the salt in there. If the sand is in there, then the salt will land on the sand and get caught and wont dissolve. But i like mixing it in the tank because i dont have any big huge 40 (or 55) gallon tubs to mix saltwater in like some people. So for initial start up, i like doing it in the tank. Because i can mix all the 10g water change water in seperate containers...i got big enough tubs for that...but just not for big amounts of water....you know what i mean?

[cilyjr]

i will thanks

[cilyjr]

i am now up and running. i finished the sump on friday, added my r/o water. and have now salted to 1.023...
http://members.cox.net/cily_jr/sump-left.jpg
http://members.cox.net/cily_jr/tank-no-fishy.jpg

[theatrus]

Looks awesome! Best of luck to you.

[cilyjr]

i am planing on ordering my live rock soon. *** my salinity is ok and ph is good. 8.0 (the color is between 8.0-8.2). sombody stop me if i am forgetting a step! oh yeah temp is 79 now heater is set for 80

[racrumrine]

Tank looks nice.

Unfortunately, by filling the tank full of water first, you've made it harder on yourself to put in the sand bed (assuming you still want one).

Now that the salt water is mixed, when you get the sand you plan to use (preferably brand new). I'd suggest draining the tank, saving the water in clean containers, putting in the sand, putting a sheet of plastic over a section of sand, and slowly pouring the water back in. That way, you will minimize the sand storm from pouring the sand through the water.

Before I had large containers, I used to borrow used 5 gallon water bottles from work on Fridays and return them on Mondays. No one seemed to mind as long as they came back.

If you find new sugar size aragonite sand for creating a deep sand bed (if that is what you want to do), you are not supposed to rinse it as some of the ultra fine particles will wash out. Because Southdown, and it's successor, is not available in my area, I went with this http://www.carib-sea.com/pages/products/marine/substrate/aragonite.html

Regarding rocks, once the tank is full, it is pretty easy to add the rocks afterwards without creating a big sandstorm. You can either start your tank with liverock recently pulled out of the ocean. Or, if you look around, you can probably find a reefer in your area getting out of the hobby and selling off rock. Usually, "used rock" is full of life and you won't stink up your house cycling "new rock". On top of that, it is often very reasonably priced.

As was mentioned, you don't have to buy live sand as the rocks will contain all the bacterial you need (and many small critters). Once you get the sand, many people also get a cup from an established tank to further the process.

Hopefully, by now, you are in contact with fellow reefers from a club in your area. They will be a great source for where you can get the sand and rocks (especially used). They will also be a great source for critters, advice and friendship.

Best of luck,

Roy

[cilyjr]

i have debated this long and hard actually. if you read the post by waterkeeper he suggests the opposite. that a sand stowm will ensue no matter how the sand is added. i will think on how to do it probably until the last second. as i have several 20 gallon tubs draining it wont be that hard just time consuming. thanks

[racrumrine]

When I used the method above, with the product above, I didn't have a sandstorm at all. The water was crystal clear in a few hours.

Best of luck,

Roy

[Angel*Fish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8260704#post8260704 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by racrumrine
Tank looks nice.

Unfortunately, by filling the tank full of water first, you've made it harder on yourself to put in the sand bed (assuming you still want one).

Now that the salt water is mixed, when you get the sand you plan to use (preferably brand new). I'd suggest draining the tank, saving the water in clean containers, putting in the sand, putting a sheet of plastic over a section of sand, and slowly pouring the water back in. That way, you will minimize the sand storm from pouring the sand through the water.

Before I had large containers, I used to borrow used 5 gallon water bottles from work on Fridays and return them on Mondays. No one seemed to mind as long as they came back.

If you find new sugar size aragonite sand for creating a deep sand bed (if that is what you want to do), you are not supposed to rinse it as some of the ultra fine particles will wash out. Because Southdown, and it's successor, is not available in my area, I went with this http://www.carib-sea.com/pages/products/marine/substrate/aragonite.html

Regarding rocks, once the tank is full, it is pretty easy to add the rocks afterwards without creating a big sandstorm. You can either start your tank with liverock recently pulled out of the ocean. Or, if you look around, you can probably find a reefer in your area getting out of the hobby and selling off rock. Usually, "used rock" is full of life and you won't stink up your house cycling "new rock". On top of that, it is often very reasonably priced.

As was mentioned, you don't have to buy live sand as the rocks will contain all the bacterial you need (and many small critters). Once you get the sand, many people also get a cup from an established tank to further the process.

Hopefully, by now, you are in contact with fellow reefers from a club in your area. They will be a great source for where you can get the sand and rocks (especially used). They will also be a great source for critters, advice and friendship.

Best of luck,

Roy
I agree - good post on the sand issue- the carribsea sugarfine oolitic is best for a DSB - the spherical shape of this sand being very beneficial

Since you've already added the water, you might as well add the sand - there is much less of a sandstorm adding it first with the plastic, but what does it matter, you've got no fish....

If you are putting in 3 inches of sand, you should go ahead and add another inch and make it a full 4 inch bed which is considered minimum depth for an effective DSB

I'm sure you've picked up on the fact that there is no need to use live fish to cycle your tank whether you have LR, LS or not - but just in case....:)

I'm sorry I don't remember if you had an RO system on your list... After a skimmer it is the next most important item. In addition to your knowing the exact quality of the water going in - it makes water changes so much easier!

Ummmm....turkey baster wasn't on the list - you won't get far with out one - lol :D

[cilyjr]

i was thinking about the turkey baster for feeding anemones on my way to work this morning. i cannot make r/o water in my apt. i have a store that i trust that makes it for 50cents a gallon. and with my system i am only looking at 10- 15 gallon water changes a month.

[Angel*Fish]

Well there are different opinions on this but I do weekly 25% water changes, FWIW. I do also have a rather high bioload.

I think it may have been Anthony Calfo who came out at MACNA and supported this kind of maintenance and I'd imagine he's thinking of tanks with lower load than mine.

I know some people don't believe in water changes at all - but that's very "unocean" like. Personally I wouldn't want to live in a room without ever changing the air

[cilyjr]

most people at the LFS are saying 10-15 monthly...for this first month i will do 10 a week until all my levels calm themselves!

[cilyjr]

i added the aragonite today i went with a slightly larger than sugar sized grain. i like the look. live rock tomorrow! 40 lbs carribean i know that is light for the tank but my choices were 40 or 80 so i will pick up 15 lbs or so from the LFS
http://members.cox.net/cily_jr/aragonite.jpg

[cilyjr]

oh yeah sand storm with this grain was done in about 4 hours

[Angel*Fish]

As crazy as this probably sounds to you the grain sizes of sand in a DSB are critical

As for water changes vs the LFS - they are entitled to their opinions and there are those who agree with them - but it might not hurt to keep in mind that they are on the selling side of your hobby

[cilyjr]

a wonderful point... i decided not to go with a DSB i really feel i will get the filtration i need from the live rock and bioballs in the sump
"FWIW. I do also have a rather high bioload" what do you mean?

[Angel*Fish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8271877#post8271877 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cilyjr
a wonderful point... i decided not to go with a DSB i really feel i will get the filtration i need from the live rock and bioballs in the sump
"FWIW. I do also have a rather high bioload" what do you mean?

Oh I forgot to ask then it's a different issue -sorry -

The 'for what it's worth' went with the sentence telling you how often I do water changes. Meaning that might not apply to your personal situation especially since I have a ton of fish and feed heavily leading to a heavy load of organics for my system to process via the biological filtration (bacteria) and protein skimmer :D

[cilyjr]

my plan of attack is to do 5 gallon changes every 3-4 days for the first two weeks or so, or until i see a drop in nitrates. this after i add the live rock tomorrow. there is already 30 lbs of live sand in the tank. and i put a couple of damsels in. i know people say the tank will cycle without fish but damsels are tough little guys

[Angel*Fish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8277430#post8277430 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cilyjr
and i put a couple of damsels in. i know people say the tank will cycle without fish but damsels are tough little guys
Why? :confused:

[cilyjr]

because with the 30 lbs live sand and 40lbs of pre cured live rock, i don't think the spike will be that bad