Tropic Marin Pro Alert -- Warning!!!-- Has anyone else seen this?

[George_N_Jo]

I just got a new batch of Tropic Marin Pro and have been doing water changes. I made up a batch and let it sit about three days aerating before I was ready to do my water change. I tested it and found it to be very deficient in Alk and Calcium. I figured I waited too long and chalked it up to precipitation. Thus I supplemented to get it up to par and did my water change.

Mg 1270 ppm
ALK 6.7 dKH / 2.40 meq/L
Ca 350 ppm

I decided that I would do a water change on my other system so I made up water and added my salt. I then gave it about 6 hours to aerated and then tested it to see where the level were. Again it was very low.

Mg 1500 ppm
ALK 4.8 dKH / 1.71meq/L
Ca 300 ppm

We are encouraged to purchase these custom blend salts for the advantage of higher Magnesium, Alkalinity, and Calcium, But this type of things happens. I an very concerned for those whom do no testing at water change times. I encourage everyone using Tropic Marin Pro to test vigorously prior to do water changes.

I would have been willing to chalk one incident up to my error. But am not will to believe that two incidents such as this falls on me making an error in the handling to the mixing of salt and water. Some thing is not right here.

Has anyone else seen this?

George

[anative]

I didn't test the last batch I made for ALK but CA was over 500 ppm and Mg was 1500 ppm. I'll look around and see if I can dig up an ALK test kit (you know me and test kits) and test the batch that is mixing right now.

Jon

[Me No Nemo]

Hey George, I use Pro at home and just tested out about 20 gallons I had aerating to do a water change tomorrow. I don't have a magnesium test at home but here's what I got for alk and calcium:
ALK 14.4 dKH / 5.14 meq/L
Ca 490 ppm.
I tested twice to be sure.

[George_N_Jo]

This is really strange. I guess I could have a bad batch. But it seems like modulus of what I have is all over the charts. It is almost like if I made two 10 gallon mixes independently with in a few moments of one another that they would be significantly different.

Can either of you (native / nemo) think of anything that I could be doing wrong with regards to causing this situation. I am stumped. I am just mixing salt at a 26 concentration here. It is not brain surgery.

[Me No Nemo]

Disregard my results...Tom was asleep when I tested and he had additives added to the water, so that would skew the results. I'll test it next time I mix it up fresh.

[waterfaller1]

Would'nt the reading be off when you test freshly made water?Should'nt it be airated/mixed for awhile before being tested?
Like...the PH of fresh made water is definately going to be low...and cal/alk/PH are related...so would'nt that make a difference?
Also...I thought the temp. of the water makes a difference too.

[MORAY]

Aerating the water increases the PH because PH is a function of the oxygen content in the water. But, the calcium and magnesium are not affected by aerating. The temp may swing it a little but not to the degree George is seeing.

George, is that a typo in your second set for magnesium?

Who knows exactly how they produce this salt and add the elements, but obiously there is something wrong with the manufacture of that salt batch, or the elements they used to make it. I wonder what kind of QC they have and how much salt is affected. Do they have any kind of code on it? It would interesting to hear Tropic Marin's thoughts on this and the actions they take, if any.

The IO problem a few years ago showed up all over the country with many posting their own personal dissasters. I wonder how many people this might affect and how many will notice.

[George_N_Jo]

JW

The second Mg in not a typo. The Mg is very high in the basic mix. I tested a batch of Tropic Marin Pro that JC had in made up some time ago, using the same test kits, and found it to have a calcium around 450 and a ALK of about 8.0 dKH. So it is definitely my salt. I also wonder how many people just go with the leap of faith with regards to the content and relative quality of their salt. Just because it says its the best does not necessarily mean that it is. What was that Dire Straits song, I think it was Industrial Disease, the verse was "Two men claim their Jesus, One of them must be wrong" I guess not every salt which claims its the best and the THE best.

[Me No Nemo]

I've contacted Tropic Marin and got an almost immediate reply from Hans-Werner Balling requesting this fhread, so let's see what comes of that. Here is an exerpt from one of his emails this morning:

"But first one word about natural specific gravity. The natural average salinity of oceanic waters is 35 ppt which equals a specific gravity of 1.0264. If you don´t adjust your saltwater to the right specific gravity you won´t get the concentrations that we claim. In this case a specific gravity of 1.0264 is 6 percent higher than 1.025. Indeed this is not much but especially in calcium and magnesium it is detectable. For example if you find just 400 ppm calcium in PRO-REEF at 1.025 the salt is adjusted to 424 ppm at 1.0264 s. g. which is allready slightly more than the natural concentration (412 ppm).

Now let´s come back to the KH. The natural KH is just 6.5° dKH at 35 ppt salinity. Our PRO-REEF is adjusted to 7° dKH at 35 ppt salinity. Do your customers claim to find less than 6° dKH at 1.025 s. g.? The cited natural KH is published in Frank J. Milleros scientific book "Chemical Oceanography", second ed., 1996, as "normalized total alkalinity" of about 2320 micromol per kilogramm."

[MORAY]

Well, the recipe may yield the best salt but I wonder how much it deviates batch to batch and how often QC is done now that the salt has been out for over a year. It could easily be manufactured for them and shipped out without TM ever seeing it and that manufacturer could be changing ingredients without approval.

I think most people don’t test the water they make for Alk, Ca, and Mg and certainly not on a normal basis. In discussing that with other hobbyists it just seems that it never popped into their mind. I’ve tested many batches of IO and it’s been pretty consistent, but it’s only within the past two years that I tested for Alk, Ca, and Mg. I was shocked the first time I ran those test and Mg was 1050 with Ca at 350-375.

I did some searching on RC and then the internet as a whole and I couldn't find anything on this problem with TM Pro. But, this salt has such a small percentage of users compared to IO so it will not get the publicity that the IO problem did. You should post this in the Reef Chemistry forum to give it more exposure.

[Reefmedic79]

I've got a batch currently mixing, and will post results of my tests shortly.

[Hans-Werner]

Hallo together,

I´m Hans-Werner Balling, product manager of Tropic Marin, allready cited by Me No Nemo above.

To make sure that a package really has concentrations that aren´t the claimed ones you will have to mix the complete package. During the transportation the salt can dismix in the package by vibrations that make lighter salts move upwards and the heavyer ones sinking to the bottom.

I can assure that the ingredients of every mix are weighed and the assemblage is controlled by a second person prior to mixing to avoid mistakes.

There might be minor differences in between the packages of one batch but we do everything to keep them really small.

We use PRO-REEF in three separate systems with 300 gall. each and test the fresh saltwater mixes and I never found concentrations as stated by George. We keep LPS, SPS, leather and soft corals and of course fishes in our aquaria. In this way we try to make sure that our products are as good and safe as possible for the user.

In my opinion it is not necessary to aerate the saltwater mix prior to using it. I circulate the water of the saltwater mix with a powerhead and use the saltwater as soon as it has become clear. The pH I test then is usually 8.2.

Regards

Hans-Werner

[waterfaller1]

Wow...all the way from Germany to make this right!Impressive!:cool:
Since you say there is settling of the salts in the mix,would turning it into another bucket several times avoid this problem?

[Hans-Werner]

Hallo Waterfaller,

I´m not sure. It also depends from the quantity of saltwater that you will make up, means the amount of salt you will take out of the bucket. I would make up at least 20 to 30 gall. of saltwater out of a 200 gall. PRO-REEF bucket.
Best would be to give the content of the bucket in a plastic tub, mix it and take salt from different places to make up 20 to 30 gall. of saltwater.
This is a bit of work but I think it is necessary to make a responsible statement.

I hope my English is good enough that you understand what I want to say.

Regards

Hans-Werner

[rutz81]

english is fine, thanks for the feedback!

FYI:
Your rep. at MACNA this year was very informative and helpful.

Dave

[MORAY]

This makes a lot of sense and I don't think any of us had considered this. With different particle sizes and weights it makes perfect sense that this would happen.

This is very impressive customer service and teamwork. First, Marcye (Sea in the City) got involved without being asked and sought out an answer. Then, Hans with Tropic Marin created an account on RC to directly address this issue. With only one person having a problem Hans got involved while we have all seen much greater issues on other products go unaddressed.

Bravo to Sea in the City and Tropic Marin!

[Me No Nemo]

Thanks Moray...I personally use Tropic Marin Pro and my tanks have done very well with it. We also use Tropic Marin exclusively in the store. I never want to recommend anything that I can't feel good about so I am very glad that Hans-Werner from Tropic Marin stepped in so quickly. I had an answer to my original email first thing on the next business day so I am very impressed with their concern and consideration. Yes, it does make sense now that it's explained. I always move the product into an airtight container at the store so that probably mixes the product there as we have tested the water we've made in the past few days and the numbers have been pretty consistant. Thanks Hans-Werner for your quick response!

[Me No Nemo]

Just as a thought to pass on, I bought an airtight dog food container at Petsmart with a screw on lid in order to keep our salt mixes fresh. This works great and keeps the salt very powdery. I know some customers have mentioned their salt hardening, but it's after the bag or bucket wasn't sealed properly. These containers are easy to store...easy to open and transferring the salt takes only a few minutes. It seems since the store's mix seems consistant that the transfer to the container has an additional benefit as it mixes the salt as well. Marcye

[Hans-Werner]

Thanks to Moray from my side too and to Marcye for drawing my attention to the problems with PRO-REEF and the excellent tips.

Hans-Werner

[Hans-Werner]

Thanks of course also to Dave for the commends.

Hans-Werner

[cdraughon]

FWIW, I recently switched to TM. The first batch I made a few weeks ago, the number were 8.18 (Ph), 350 (Ca), 7.4 (Kh). I did not have a Mg test kit at the time. Temp was 79 and SG wat 1.026.

I'm currently making a new batch now, and will test.

[55reeforlando]

I use regular TM but I swear by it. I think it is definitely the best salt on the market. I'm impressed by this great customer service. Thanks TM.

George- Would like to meet up with you soon. Gimme a call. 954-214-9390

[cdraughon]

Just tested my new batch of salt. I use Salifert test kits. SG is 1.0276.

Ca = 400
dkh=8.3
Mg = 1440

[smpolyp]

I think this hit home with Moray about the shipping. He use to work on a boat and had to relace bulbs all the time due to the vibration. This makes sense like a giant sifter.
Hans-Werner would it be best for us over seas to get the salt in the bag? Like the 300gal? Would this help to cut down on the vibration the plastic bucket goes through during shipping?

[Hans-Werner]

Hello cdraughon,

are we speaking about our Tropic Marin Sea Salt or about PRO-REEF?

Hello smpolyp,

I think it should be better with the bags, but I think it is no serious problem with the "separated" salt in the aquarium. The concentrations are only shifted a bit, nothing that would cause problems in your aquarium and after using up the complete bucket all salts are in your aquarium in the original relations or at least nearly so.
I think this discussion is more about what we test and not about the effects in the aquarium.

Hans-Werner

[Me No Nemo]

Hans-Werner...in relation to smpolyp's question..will you be offering the Pro Salt in the 300 gallon size? I'm not able to get that here...thanks, Marcye

[George_N_Jo]

Hello all,

I want to apologize to everyone for my late response. I have been sick.

Thanks to everyone who replied and a special thanks to Hans-Werner. I was very curious about this problem that I am experiencing so I decided that I would go to another reef keeper’s home in the area that I knew used Tropic Marin Pro. The reason I went was because I wanted to validate my newly purchased test kits against another independent sample. It just so happened that Jon C. had a 35 – 40 gallon bath that he had made up and had been aerating for about a week. The water a salinity of 1.025 and the Alkalinity and Calcium both tested out to be excellent. This was sufficient evidence to me that the Salifert test kits were giving valid results.

I understand that the salt can easily be impacted by settling but I am about 60% through the bucket of Tropic Marin Pro and in the two batched that that made I have seen lower numbers. I will be making another batch this week for my other tank and will keep you posted on that batch. I intend to mix the remaining contents of the bucket in an attempt to modularize the salt. If the mix did fall out of modulus during shipping I should see on higher numbers after remixing the salt within the bucket. I appreciate everyone’s Inputs an want to assure everyone that even though I have encountered this little anomalous batch of salt I would never consider Tropic Marin the leading synthetic sea and reef salt manufacture in the world today. And will continue to proudly use there product.

[waterfaller1]

Did you mean to say you "would consider" or "would never consider".....?:cool:

[Hans-Werner]

Hello Marcye,

I am sorry, yes, you are right. We have the 150 gallon bags in the box with TM Sea Salt in the US but we don´t offer the same size PRO-REEF in the US. In Europe we sell both salts in 20 kg/156 gallon carrier bags. I think it´s because the bags in the box are more stable than the carrier bags.

Hello George,

can you please give me the Lot-No. of your PRO-REEF. You find it stamped under the lid of the bucket or imprinted on the upper side of the box.
We keep a sample of each batch of salt back. The Lot-No. also shows when it was manufacured and I can check the "Protokoll" (minutes? record?) of the batch.

Hans-Werner

[George_N_Jo]

Hans-Werner,
I would like to apologize for my previous post. It read that I would never consider Tropic Mairn the leading syntheic salt manufacturer in the word today.

What I inteded to say was that I would definitely consider Tropic Marin the leading synthetic sea and reef salt manufacture in the world today.

I do regret the typo. A special thanks to you waterfaller1. It was an error. See my corrected stetement below.

CORRECTION MADE ~~~CORRECTION MADE

I appreciate everyone’s Inputs an want to assure everyone that even though I have encountered this little anomalous batch of salt I would definitely consider Tropic Marin the leading synthetic sea and reef salt manufacture in the world today. And will continue to proudly use there product.

[SSweet1]

I love Tropic Marin salt. When I used instant ocean I had to add calcium to get it correct. When I used Oceanic I had diatoms constantly. Every batch of Tropic Marin has been perfect even the magnesium levels! Carrie

[cdraughon]

Hans-Werner,

Regarding your recent reply to me, I use Tropic Marine Pro-Reef from the box. In my last post, the SG should be 1.026, not 1.0276. I would consider the test results acceptable.

Thanks

[Hans-Werner]

Hello cdraughon,

yes, acceptale, but I would expect 420 ppm calcium at least.
I usually test concentrations between 420 ppm and 440 ppm calcium in PRO-REEF.

Hans-Werner

[waterfaller1]

The 300 gallon bag of Pro Reef would be great!

[Hans-Werner]

Let´s see what I can do.

[Amort]

I also just purchased a new bucket of Tropic Maric Pro Reef and also did a calcium check using Salifert test kit on a new batch of water ( 20 gallons ). I also have found the Calcuium to be low (345),(ran two test just to double check). Was suprised because i thought the pro reef was supposed to have higher level of calcium. This is why i bought it.

[Hans-Werner]

Hello Amort,

345 ppm is less than in our US-mix of our Tropic Marin Sea Salt and we add more calcium to our PRO-REEF.
Did your read the complete thread and do what I suggested? Did you check the s. g.?

Regards

Hans-Werner

[Amort]

Yes I did read the complete theads and my s.g. at the test was 1.025. Will test another batch in a couple weeks. i will mix the salt well before adding to the RO water. Will let you know the results . Thanks

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

amort....if you read a little closer you will see that their claimed levels are at a 1.0264s.g. - not 1.025

T.M. Pro Reef is the BEST SALT - IMO

[smpolyp]

From a view of looking at the quality of the chems TM uses I would say they have a high quality salt.
I am interested in Amort's and George's lot number to see if it is the same.
I'm also interested in George's test at the end of the bucket.
If George gets a low reading still it may lead to a improper mix. If so this is not new to our hobby it has happened before. As before it maybe from a simple error.
What have we learned from this? Test your new salt mix and adjust and report you results to the manufacture.

[Amort]

Hans-Werner,
I checked my lot number, it's 23514.
Not sure want if George ever posted his.
Will keep you posted with my next batch of water.

[George_N_Jo]

I thought that I had posted that number previously. But it looks like I did not. Mine is also 23514.

[Hans-Werner]

Hello,

this batch was manufactured december 15th last year and is allready the new cmoposition with slightly elevated magnesium concentrations.

Hans-Werner

[George_N_Jo]

I just did another batch and the values were low again.

ALK 6.6 dKH
Ca 320 ppm

I mixed the remaining salt as suggested by Hans-Werner. when removing the bag I did find it had a small rip near its base. This could have allowed moisture to permeate and impacted some of the buffers.

I am not sure what is going on here. I mixed the batch this morning and just tested and got low results. Not sure what's going on. Maybe its the rip in the bag. But it was in the bucket. Then again it was manufactured in December 2004 and it is now OCT 2005. That is a great deal of time for moisture to have impacted the mixture.

Oh well. This bucket is almost gone. I guess we will see what the next bucket brings.

[waterfaller1]

How do you tell what the lot number is? Is it the last numbers of the bar code at the bottom of the bucket?

[Me No Nemo]

It's inside the bucket lid...

[waterfaller1]

Thanks Me:)
Have a great day!!:wavehand:

[waterfaller1]

Great...I have the same batch:(
Guess I better test too...

[Amort]

Hello, Well I did another batch water test yesterday (lot # 23514) and the Ca came out about the same 330 @ SG 1.027. I would say there is somthing lacking from the manufacture at this point. Might take some to local LS have them test it. Don't like to fact I paid a premium for a salt that seems to be subpar....

[waterfaller1]

I have the same lot number,and mine tested 400 Ca,and 3.43 Alk/9.6 DKH.

[kabboord]

OoOo I just pulled my lid off a brand spanking new bucket, 23514.
I'll have to get in on this.

What might be interesting is, if your values are very low, and then someone like mine, end up being vary high, which would suggest simply improper mixing. Or if they are low across the board which would indicate possibly saving money expensive additives. Before I presuppose anything though, we would need to figure out stuff like how many are in a lot. All that being said

I think Pro-Reef is great stuff. I've never really had any problems which I thought to be salt related. Further I am really really impressed that we got Mr. Werner here in on this thread. Incredible customer service. Also is a great lesson in maintaining customer confidence.

Regardless of how everything tests out I still say hats of to Mr. Werner and the people there for being part of this discussion. Something I would say not many other people in this industry would do. Man, seems like those German's really know how to do business.

I'm going to mix up a 32 gallon batch. I also have a refractometer so I will get the salt exactly dialed in.
Can some one fill me in on the protocal just for concistancy stake.
What should I airate it with? How long should I mix.

I have an autowater changer\mixer that you can see in my gallery, that provides the agitation for mixing, do I need to drop an airstone in too?

[Me No Nemo]

Just an update on most recent mix, bucket lot# 23514.
For 20 gallons of saltwater mixed at 1.025 I got the following readings 3 hours after salt was added:
400 calcium
8.3 dKH, 2.97 meg/l
1500 magnesium
My tank is testing out at 1420 magnesium with no supplementation which is a bonus since mag supplementation can get expensive and I'm really impressed with the growth I'm getting with the higher magnesium levels.