LFS says "No skimmer in Reef setup!" Huh?

[routesixtysixer]

LFS tells me, "You don't want a protein skimmer in a reef tank, it will strip out all of your trace elements and calcium." Huh? This can't be true; everyone swears by protein skimmers. Then I tell him that I'm getting rid of my bio wheels since everyone says they are just a "nitrate factory." He says, "What? No, they are getting rid of your nitrate." My nitrate readings are 0, and he says, "That's because you have all that hair algae to feed on the nitrate."

Now I'm asking:

Where are the nitrates coming from?

-------and--------

Do protein skimmers strip the good stuff out of the water? I'm on well water (usually high in calcium) but my calcium levels were in the 320-340 range before heavy dosing (now ~500). Is he right? Is my new Remora stripping the calcium out of the water? My green star polyp closed up shop for 6 weeks solid; only after heavy calcium dosing has it re-emerged (only partially, though). Is this why?

HELP! Why is it that you ask five different "experts" the same question and you get five different answers? Man, this can be so frustrating figuring out what is the right thing to do.

[Stevan]

Find a new fish store or learn to ignore that person as he is 100% wrong on both accounts.

[der_wille_zur_macht]

Totally 100% wrong.

[Gobydude777]

I almost sneezed my Sprite out my nose when I read this. Protein Skimmers removing all calcium???? Bio-Wheels keeping Nitrates down??? What has the Reef World come to!?!?

[xian]

Yeah he's confused. Biowheels convert Ammonia and NItrite INTO nitrate. Thats the point of them they are wet dires that provide oxygen for the aerobic bacteria

[JessB]

Skimmers....
Your LFS is NOT 100% wrong.
Why don't you research some more....
i.e. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/proskimrart2.htm

[Pistonkev]

Where is this petco?

[sbluscombe]

need to find someone else for help. Not them.

[Mr.Lloyd]

Even your local fish store can hire the village idiot.Protein skimmers remove organic material before it has achance to break down into ammonia,nitrite and nitrate.Trust the crowd on RC.Read a lot of old posts too.

[der_wille_zur_macht]

Originally posted by JessB
Skimmers....
Your LFS is NOT 100% wrong.
Why don't you research some more....
i.e. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/proskimrart2.htm

I guess it comes down to terminology. Does a skimmer remove some good stuff? Sure.

Will it remove "trace elements?" Not by my definition - stuff like selenium, boron, strontium, etc exist as ions in the water - a protien skimmer won't touch those. What will it remove? Really big protiens or other organic compounds. Do those fall under the heading "trace element?" Again, not in my book.

Will it remove calcium? Certainly not.

[NwG]

Ok JessB maybe not 100% wrong but 99.999999%

While, it is true that protein skimming removes more than just undesirable elements from the aquarium. It will also remove some useful compounds, too. This is one of the reasons why some hobbyists resist their usage. However, by the same token, if we want to exclude everything in the aquarium that takes out desirable organics and bio-minerals, we would have to remove our corals and other invertebrates too, and the fishes, desirable algae, true vascular plants, etc. You get the drift! Without a skimmer, the water will still be scrubbed of desirable components. In my opinion, protein skimming far and away serves the greater good. Over time, we are beginning to understand the nature and quality of noxious compounds that are being produced in our systems. Protein skimming helps to reduce the amount and impact of these "toxins".

Personaly i go with the biggest skimmer I can run... and even then I want to go bigger... I tested my skimmate for calcium... 230ppm.. my tank runs at 460ppm.... that means eather some CA was used up in the skimmate or is left IN the tank..

I would never run a tank W/O a skimmer... but some people do?...
and the hair hair algae comment is really funny!!!

[kevensquint]

Rule #1,never ask anything at the LFS,go in get what you need (and researched) and get out.Rule #2,ask your questions on this forum,the experts are actually experts and the rest of us have alot of different experiences that may be helpful.

[Ti]

He isn''t 100% wrong about the skimmer.
Using a skimmer is not the only method in this hobby.
Look at the Berlin method.
BUt he was wrong about the bio wheel.

[Stevan]

Originally posted by JessB
Skimmers....
Your LFS is NOT 100% wrong.
Why don't you research some more....
i.e. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/proskimrart2.htm



After skimming that article:D I didn't find anything to substantiate the LFS guy's comments.

[seahunter]

Your LFS should be closed down!! If he were giving that kind of BAD information on a dog or cat he WOULD BE!! Think about it.

[dsquared]

routesixtysixer
how much skimate does your remora pull out? i know i will
never pour what comes out of mine back into the tank.

[Lincutis]

I think that lfs guy is absolutely right...everytime he thinks to himself,"I should be flipping burgers".

[liz3]

I'm sorry, but...the first thing you think of in a reef...believe me from many mistakes....is a protein skimmer. Ask us, don't ask the lfs. Some people in a lfs are in the hobby, but, come on, most are in it for a paycheck.

Ask here first, then go in educated.

[xian]

I wouldn't lump all lfs employees together. I get advice from people at my lfs all the time. Some of them are quite knowledgeable One owner around here is a retired biochemist.
Others I know are experienced hobbiests.

Just because some employees are idiots doesn't mean they all are.

Think about it if for any reason one of us had to take a job in an lfs, we would be the ones handing out the advice.

[bertoni]

I skimmed the article, too, and didn't really agree with all of it. This article is more accurate, IMO:

http://web.archive.org/web/20030415033358/http://home.mweb.co.za/jv/jv79/reef/skimmers2.html

[scuba cam]

I could see not using a skimmer if you had the perfect balance of plants and animals that would use up all the organics. Mabye:)

[Scooter64]

I used to take what my LFS said to be gospel, but as I gained experience, I found out that often times they are wrong more than they are right. Don't get me wrong, there are some very knowledgable LFS employees out there, but if it is not one you have established a good relationship with, take what they have to offer with a grain of sea salt. Especially if their advice involves you purchasing something.

[routesixtysixer]

Wow, thanks. I think I hit a chord. This particular LFS is called "Reef" something; specialize in reef aquatics. Kind of scary, huh? I guess I was just looking for justification for where I am going with my system; you all confirmed that I'm headed in the right direction (regardless of what my LFS says). Thanks again!

[Stevan]

Routesixtysixer I hope you've upgraded the pump on your Remora to at the Min an MJ1200...I'm considering going with a Mag 3 or even a Mag 5 w/a flow valve that I can throttle down some.

It's a good design but I believe its sadly underpowered.

[routesixtysixer]

Yes, I purchased with the upgraded MJ1200 pump (based on research done here at RC) and I have not been disappointed with it's performance. I empty every two or three days some pretty nasty stuff. The nastiness of the skimmate is not as bad as it was at first (maybe 80% of what it was). It started skimming within about two days and the worst stuff came out in the first three weeks after that. My bioload is pretty low and I try not to overfeed; of course, this is easier with only a few fish.

[Stevan]

Rt66...

Good, I'm glad the Remora is working out for you. About 90% of the folks that have them are satisfied. I wish I were one of them. I do have a high bioload in it's defense. But if it were truely effective it would be pulling gunk like crazy.

No more sumpless non RR tanks again!

[JessB]

so...to better re-eduacate my thinking and to re-confirm my previous statement, I contacted a manufacturer about the question raised...will skimmers take out "good stuff" along with the "bad stuff"......and the answer..........

Thanks for the message, I can help you out. The skimmer may remove some of the living plankton you have in your tank and some trace elements such as iodine, strontium and molybdenum. However, a skimmer will not remove calcium or alkalinity from the water. In general, as long as water changes are performed regularly and food is added to the water, trace element depletion is nothing to worry about.

Please let me know if you have any other comments or questions and I would be happy to help you out!
- - - - - - - - - - -

Christine Quinones
Customer Service Manager
Aqua C

[Stevan]

Yup, Skimmers do more good then harm. Much more!

[VoidRaven]

If the ocean does foam fractioning (skimming), then it must be for some greater good so why shouldn't we mimic it as best we can in our tanks with skimmers? Sounds to me like this particular employee missed the clue train a long time ago. Makes you wonder if his tank looks better than most of our lawns with all the hair algae he probably has!

[JessB]

yes....but no one gave accurate and correct info to the original poster....instead...blasted the poor LFS guy...
IME, and along with the IMO several reputable people and companies, Skiimers do indeed take out some "good stuff" along with all the "bad stuff"....awaits flames

[Stevan]

Jess B - I saw no one dispute the some good/mostly bad removal concept. A good skimmer and regular water changes seems to be a common theme in this thread.

And an I'll informed, opinionated LFS employee is potentially harmful.

[phil519]

Jessb -

I think we can agree that reef tanks can and do survive just fine with or without a skimmer. My personal opinion is that I would not recommend a new hobbyist start a tank without a skimmer.

Let's address this aqua C statement though - I'm a little troubled by it...

This first statement:
The skimmer may remove some of the living plankton you have in your tank and some trace elements such as iodine...

Iodine is incredibly complex and almost impossible to measure properly. Unless aqua C spent tons of research dollars and came up with scientific method - it's unlikely she is speaking with any facts to back up her statement. Folks always ask on RC whether there is a need to dose iodine. I don't because of this article (http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.htm).

In fact the first link you posted partially refutes this aqua c statement:
The skimmer may remove some of the living plankton...

Per your link...
"Plankton is simply too large and not attracted (literally) to the process"

I think the bottom line here is yes there is a lot of debate as to what exactly a skimmer skims and whether it is beneficial or not. Most folks who own reef tanks run one perfectly fine with one - while others can do just fine without one.

Stating that though, we should not excuse anyone for making inaccurate statements that skimmers remove calcium and bio balls remove nitrates.

As a caveat - it's quite possible this person (LFS) has been helpful in guiding rt66 up til now and simply had a brain freeze when presented this question (we all have bad days right?).

Anyways - although jessb invited flames - I hope that we can continue a sane discussion without flaming one another! ;)

[bertoni]

IMO, AquaC is correct, and a skimmer will remove some plankton. Read Dr Holmes-Farley's articles for the details on how skimming works, but I am positive they will remove plankton. I don't think the Web Web Media article is very accurate.

As far as getting part of the "good stuff", well, are we talking in a practical sense or in terms of basically theoretical interest only? If in theoretical terms, skimmers will remove about every chemical in the tank over time, after all.

In practical terms, they will IMO remove plankton that I'd really rather have in the tank, and they will remove things that I want removed. I might be overlooking something, but I haven't seen anything else listed here yet that's of interest to me.

[AquaTamer]

I would like to point out that there is no reason to run Calcium over 390. The corals won't use anymore than they get with that concentration. Anymore just increases creeping salt and stalagtites in your cabinet.

"And all the fish, that lay in dirty water, dying. Have they got you hypnotized?"
Answer---"HuH? I wasn't paying attention."

[thrlride]

Can you imagine how nice it would be if we all had an LFS that was as knowledgable as the RC people?

[xian]

Most of the people at my LFS are on RC:cool: