How Do I To Controll This Hyrdozoan?

[bajathree]

I placed this question in Erics forum and he said you may have more ideas on it. The Hyrdozoan is Myrionema amboinensis . It is spreading through my tanks and am looking for something to controll it. Maybe fish, urchin,nudibranchs:confused: It is interesting looking but it is starting to spread a little to much.
http://reeftalk.com/Baja's%20Pix/UnidentifiedMacro.jpg
http://reeftalk.com/Baja's%20Pix/UnidentifiedMacro2.jpg

[rshimek]

Hi,

Well, it is an interesting looking critter.

I think you have a couple of choices, but none of them are really very good.

First (and most certain), get a pair of watchmakers forceps and use these to pick it off the rocks. You should actually be able peel large sections off pretty easily.

Second: predators.... Well, none that I know of specifically. Nudibranchs are specific predators, which means each hydroid eating species only eats a few selected species of hydroids. So you would have to find the particular on that eats this species. I am sure there are probably several species that eat it. I am equally sure we haven't a clue what they are... and, for certain sure, that they are impossible to get in the hobby.

I don't know of any fish predators upon hydroids.

As far as urchins... Pencil urchins are generally carnivorous and I suspect they would eat it. However, they are also likely to eat soft corals, corals, etc. Basically, they eat anything they can catch.

Another option are keyhole limpets. These are also grazing carnivores, and might eat it.

Sorry not to be of more help.

:D

[bajathree]

I have been using tweezers to pull it off the rock only to have it grow back in time. I have even removed and brushed rock and had it return over time again. Any ideas of where to get keyhole limpets:confused:

[NaCl]

bajathree,

i will pay you to ship me some of it.

seriously.l

[Lutefisk]

I had these guys arrive as hitchikers. At first they looked great blowing in the current. Then they began to spread. After having read the article about them I decided that the sooner I took care of it the better.

I tried plucking them underwater - no good

I tried pulling out the rocks, scraping where they were, and then toasting them with a cigarette lighter - they came back

Then I pulled out the rock, scraped, and then hit the area with a wire wheel on Dremel tool - They're gone!!

My advice - get them while you can.

Paul

[Guy]

Originally posted by bajathree
Any ideas of where to get keyhole limpets:confused:

I received some on Florida rock. Post a question to Gulf-View in the Vendor Forum and see if they would be willing to collect some for you.

[bajathree]

NaCl, you want some no problem. I just did a major prune so just give me a bit and I will have plenty.
Removing rock is not really an option here. This is a 130 that has over 250lbs of LR and some very grown in SPS. I would have to rip the entire tank apart, and then am still not guarantied that it will not return. Short of bleaching the rock:eek1:I am sure a few spores will survive. I talked with Mike at Inland and he said he had noticed that once putting a shipment of 100 Peperments in a 40gal with Hyrdoids,that they ate all the heads off. I picked up 8 today just to see if I notice they picking. If I do I will put in a large number. I have some right against my Montipora Capricornis and they have not bothered it. That is a good sign since that is a very sensitive coral to stings. Mike said the ones in his tank stung the hell out of him when he rubbed against them. I rubbed my are on them and I had no problem. I guess there are different types when it comes to stinging:confused: In any case I really see no option now except living with them. What is the alternative, rip apart my reef:rolleyes:I do not accept that as a solution;)

[rshimek]

Hi,

I would also recommend that you contact Teresa at Sea Critters (www.sea-critters.com), I have gotten keyhole limpets from her in the past.

Good luck.

[NaCl]

bajathree,

ok, i will e-mail you in a week or so, if that's ok?
i'm thinking of using them for nutrient export in
my refugium.

[bajathree]

I have a feeling that I may have some explanation for the sudden spread. I have had a colony living in my 25 for over a year now. It stayed very contained on the rock it grew on and spread very little. A few months ago I started feeding Reef Solution daily. That is about the same time that they took off and really started spreading. I guess it is a catch 22, the reef solution is working on both good and bad. I am not blaming the Reef Solution but I do feel it is feeding it and contributing to it's sudden spread. I am going to discontinue feeding it for a month or two and see if it's growth slows.
NaCl, I do not know if that is something you want to do. This stuff is not going to stay in your refugium. A spore or two will flow back into the main tank without doubt and that is all you need. Think about it first but I do not want to be the blame of Hydroids in your display tank:(

[NaCl]

yeah, however, it can't be worse than hair algae and cyano..:) :D :) :D :)

[Ironreef]

FWIW LFS (SWC) used a file fish in there tank,but I'm not sure what kind. They had a bad problems with hydroids. I belive the fish did eat them but it took a couple tries. = Diffent kinds/types of fish. But the advantage to owning a fish store is you can put them in trap them out and have ppl watching them the fish all day. I dunno if this is common. Probally not but worth looking into?? It looked like a Saddled Filefish= Paraluteres prionurus. But it may eat other things also. But maybe easier to get out than coral eating snails??

[bajathree]

Thanks for the info. I am leaving fish controll as a last option. I have never had luck getting a problem fish out of my reef short of having to take apart the entire tank. I am curious, did they try CopperBand Buterflies. That is a fish I thought might possibly work. The problem with fish controll is that each fish seems to be a hit or miss with if it will touch what it is supposed to take care of in the first place and then like mentioned getting him out before he eats everything else. DId that FileFish they put in eat corals to:confused:

[LPSman]

Hi there,


This is quiet a timely thread as a guy came into the LFS today cursing as he presentley has these as a big problem in his tank.
They seem to be (from what i can gather) appearing rapidly.

We did a search here a have gone down the route of Pencil urchins....so hopefully i can keep you posted as to if they make any inroads:confused:

[Ironreef]

You are right about fish control. Buy a fish to do a job = it won't do it. But LFS has the advantage put it in take it out. They have all day to catch it in there trap. They tried various Butterflies. The file was the only fish to eat them. It must have worked cuz they had a tankful but its all gone now.

[bajathree]

LPSman, I have also added a pencil urchin this weekend as I do not seem to be locating Keyhole Limpets quickly. So far he has stayed pretty much in one area where there are no hydroids:rolleyes: so I cannot report yet.
Ironreef, I am still curious if the Filefish also damaged corals on his quest for hydroids:confused:
I have also added 8 Peperment shrimp a few day's back, forget that route:rolleyes: at least in my 130. I have only seen one since I added it and it was eating a cube of Formula2. Maybe more something to try on my 25gal. In any case it was reported that they did see the heads eaten off the hydroids when added on a 1/1gal ratio. There is no way that will work on a large tank.

[NaCl]

i had a filefish briefly, before i realized the value of a screened
pump intake:o

Anyway, it was a really neat fish. it would change color with
it's mood and as far as predation, it pretty much wiped out
my sandbed for awhile:eek: it would 'blow' water to get it's
morsels from the substrait. However it didn't bother any of
the corals. But i tend to agree that if something is going to
eat polyps, it's probably going to eat more than just one kind
of polyp. i bet there is a nudibracht that would selectively
control your hydroids but who knows what species of slug
it is.

[jimroth]

I bought a copperband to control my aiptasia. Aiptasia were all eaten, after the fanworms. The nameless hydroid we are all supporting was untouched and survives to this day, although the copper has since died and the aiptasia have not returned.
Hey, maybe we should have a give-the-hydroid-a-stupid-common-name contest.
Weedroids?
Sea Dandelions?
Fuzzbusters?
I know, I got too much time on my hands...

[bajathree]

Jim, I have identified the species of Hydroid. It is Myrionema amboinensis (http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1997/oct/features/1/default.asp)
I got luck at the LFS today. I was looking over their LR and found a nice 1" Keyhole. Well it's only one but it is a start.
Dr. Ron I got a question, how many Keyhole's would you recomend to put in my 130:confused: I have about 3 rock companies in Fl trying to locate some for me and they have asked me how many I would be needing.

[bajathree]

Dr. Ron I got a question, how many Keyhole's would you recomend to put in my 130 I have about 3 rock companies in Fl trying to locate some for me and they have asked me how many I would be needing.

[rshimek]

Originally posted by bajathree

Hi,

Dr. Ron I got a question, how many Keyhole's would you recomend to put in my 130:confused: I have about 3 rock companies in Fl trying to locate some for me and they have asked me how many I would be needing.

I really don't know how many to suggest - and keep in mind it is a bit of shot in the dark if they will work at all. I would guess at least a half dozen larger ones (1" long) or more smaller ones.

The pencil urchin remedy may also be viable, as these are carnivores on sessile animals.

Do let us know what happens, please. :D

[bajathree]

I am going to try adding a couple more pencil urchins as one I do not believe is enough. It has been 3 day's now and he has stayed in the same area. Of course where there are no hydroids:rolleyes: He has done a great job of cleaning the rock in that area however..lol As far as the single Keyhole, it is to early to say. I will keep you informed on the progress. I have started to take pix of the infected areas to be able to keep track of any progress. I did notice yesterday that some red scarlets were sifting through the hydroids looking for food. In the process they ate some of the heads off them. It was not a lot, but enough to notice. The stalks however were still present. This may keep in track with what was noticed at Inland Aqautics. In very high concentration of Peperment shrimps all the heads were eaten. However it would look like you would have to practical inundate the tank with these critters to see the hydroids eaten faster than they grow. As for aditional Keyhole's I am still waiting to hear back from the companies that are searching there rock vats for some.

[rshimek]

Hi,

Thanks for the update.

Any with just the heads eaten off will regenerate them. You need to get something that can get them down to the base, that's why I suggested the limpets and think the urchins are a good idea. In both cases, the whole individual is eaten.

:D

[Dwayne]

Anyone know how to get a limpet to let go of the rock its on? For such a small critter they have an exceptional 'grip'. :rolleyes:

I always wondered what these things ate.

Bajathree - I sent you an email.

Dwayne

[bajathree]

Dwane, I got your mail and responded back:) I found one at the LFS the other day that was about an inch. Man, I know what you mean, it wasn't like pulling a little snail off. I twisted it back and forth untill it looseened. I was a little afraid I was going to damage it but it came off fine.

[Dwayne]

Dr. Ron,

Before I send something to Bajathree that might not be what he wants, could you tell if these critters might be the right ones for his problem?

http://www.reefaholics.org/dwayne/stuff/limpet.JPG


Thanks

Dwayne

[LPSman]

Hello.....the same guy came back to the LFS Sat PM and told us that the six pencil urchins he added were indeed clearing the Hydroids right down to the rock:D

[rshimek]

Originally posted by Dwayne

Hi Dwayne,

Before I send something to Bajathree that might not be what he wants, could you tell if these critters might be the right ones for his problem?

I don't think the animal pictured, Scutus unguis will bother the hydroids at all. It is called a shield limpet, and the group it belongs to are classically considered to be algal eaters.


:D

[rshimek]

Originally posted by LPSman

Hi Marc,

Hello.....the same guy came back to the LFS Sat PM and told us that the six pencil urchins he added were indeed clearing the Hydroids right down to the rock:D

This sounds good! Gotta watch pencil urchins though. They will also eat corals, soft corals, zoanthids, shrimp, sleeping fish... well, you get the idea. After the hydroids are gone, you might suggest that he trade in 5 of the 6 for something less voracious.

:D

[bajathree]

I also have finally noticed that one of the Pencil Urchins has eaten a colony of the Hydroids. You can see the before and after's in the pix below.
http://reeftalk.com/Baja's%20Pix/UrchinEatingHydroid1.jpg.jpg
Rock one week ago
http://reeftalk.com/Baja's%20Pix/UrchinEatingHydroid2.jpg.jpg
Urchin yesterday eating hydroid colony
http://reeftalk.com/Baja's%20Pix/UrchinEatingHydroid3.jpg.jpg
Rock today after Urchin has moved on

As you can see he ate about 90% of the hydroids off that rock. This was the first time I have noticed one realy eating them. Prior, I have seen some trails through some colonies but with only few eaten. I have 4 Pencil Urchin's in the tank and have been watching them closely. I have not seen any aggresive tendency towards any of my corals so far. I will keep updated on the progress. As far as the one Keyhole I got I have not observed him eating any of the Hydroids yet.

[rshimek]

Hi,

Thanks for the progress report. It looks like the urchin will at least eat them...

By the by, the urchin won't be aggressive toward the corals, in the least, any more than you would be aggressive toward any snack.... :D

[bajathree]

They actually seem to be interested in the coralline more than anything. They do a good job at chomping on it. The hydroids seem to be just something they eat if it happens to be on the rock there chomping. I have not noticed that they are going out of there way for them. In some intenses they have actually went around them. Since I work from my house I am always observing them, so I have been able to watch closely. If the urchins do start getting in trouble it wouldn't be long before I spot them. They graze in a relativly slow pace and seem to work in one area for a while. So far I do not believe there is any way they will eradicate the hydroids. There always seems to be some left behind and they grow quicker than these guys move around. I have come to the belief that something will always try to dominate, weater it be Xenia, Star Polyps, Mushrooms....ect. I think the trick is trying to keep as best a ballance as possible. So far I have noticed no ill effects by these hydroids what so ever. I have them colonized on the sides of clams, touching the mantles, and right up against corals and do not seem either being stressed or iritated at all.

[NaCl]

my kingdom for a polyp...

Please, send me a bit of your 'weed' so that i won't have to
choose between milk for my baby ore stayin' up late in hopes
of something on the internet.

[bajathree]

NaCl if you really want some the best thing would be for me to place a small piece of rubble next to a colony and let them grow onto it. I could then send you that piece. When you pull them off the rock they come off in very small pieces and I do not think you will have much luck like trying to attach them to anything like that.

[bajathree]

I just want to give an update. The single Keyhole Limpet I tried did not work out. It had no interest in the Hydroids but had a taste for SPS. I found it grazing on the bases of 2 of my SPS colonies where they were encrusted to the LR. It ate the tissue right down to the skeleton. I have since banned it to my sump. The 4 Pencil Urchins continue to graze the rock ocassionaly eating the hydroids. There do graze it but I do not feel they will eradicate the problem. They move very slowly grazing in one small are at a time. They also only eat what is on the surface of the LR and can not get the runners that are deep in crevices. They do however seem to graze it, so that is good. The funny thing is they seem to stay in certain areas only not getting to the real infested spots. As far as their being agressive I have seen them touch nothing but the rock. I have even watched them climb over SPS colonies but never bothering them at all. I even watch them pass by softies with no interest. They will move right along the base of my corals but never have harmed them yet. I do have larger rocks and corals are mostly encrusted or attached so bulldozing has also not been an issue. I had also used a tooth brush to brush them off some spots of LR a few weeks ago, only for thos areas to come back thicker than before. Kind of like grass, the more you cut it the faster it seems to grow. I feel it is best to just leave them alone. I still to date have seen no aggresive behavior of the hydroids to any corals or clams. Even the ones right up against the bases of corals and mantels of clams have shown no ill effects. Also I have not seen any tendancy yet for the runners to try to attach to corals. I was e-mailed by another reefer with them who has had them growing in his tank for 8 months also with no problems towards his corals.

[rshimek]

Hi,

[thanks] for the update.

Sorry to hear about the keyhole. There are a lot of species of them, and I suspect they have differing dietary requirements. I think some others may well eat the hydroids, but it probably isn't worth trying to get them.

I am glad the urchins are working. I hope they continue to do so. You may find that the urchins will switch from one food to another from time to time - presumeably to balance some nutrients.

I am glad to hear that you have had no problems with the hydroids and corals yet. I thnk what you might look for are signs of recession or reduced growth where the hydroids might brush against the polyps.

:D