What clownfish do I have and what would the babies likely look like?

[slojmn]

Well, I am not sure about full on breeding but I am interested in trying to raise some babies. First off I have the Wilkerson book and I have done a lot of research and get the basics...once I get going I am sure many questions will emerge. My biggest question is about my current pair. I am not sure what I have, I believe the male to be a regular ocellaris, the female??? black ocellaris, onyx, not sure. Any thougts. Here are some different pics over the years, I really need to find a current picture of the pair. The female is much more black now, almost all the way to her underbelly, but her snout is still orange. I'll try to find some current pics when I get home, I am sure I might have some lying around on another computer. They spawn regularly, I think...behind a rock in the back of my reef, but I can tell usually they are in more of a frenzy with other fish getting near their nest when a spawn is in process. I have had the luck of seeing many of their nests over the years and I always say I should try to raise those little boogers. Maybe I will now. So what do you think the offspring might end up looking like?

Female in May, 2002


The pair in Dec 2002 (I know long ago, but you get the idea)


Pair hosting in Rose in Dec 2003, male has a little darkness to him.

[mwp]

They look like percs...one heavily towards the onyx varient of sorts. Closeup of the dorsal fins might help with ray counts...that might help with actual ID 'cause they also look like Ocellaris (see my Halfblack Ocellaris thread).

Matt

[keefsama2003]

male has muddy eye ring at least from the top picture.

female is an onyx i would say but dont get me to betting the horses.

i say both percs

[slojmn]

Thanks for your thoughts, here is a current picture I just took, a little blurry so counting rays on dorsal fin is a bit hard, but do you count the spaces in between the spikes or the spikes themselves? I count 5 spikes, 6 spaces in between. The pic does not show the thin, 1-2cm line of orange running down the female's belly, the black never filled in all the way. The male is very bright, popping, neon orange (much different than pic from 4 years ago) and the female has a more golden orange face.

Any thoughts on what babies might turn out like...1/2 and 1/2?

[mwp]

AHA, that's TOTALLY a Black Ocellaris, not an Onyx perc. Something didn't look "right".

To me, the other one looks like a standard perc...that's a lot of black for an Ocellaris. If I'm counting right that's 9 spines in the first dorsal, which I think is a Perc trait....

I'd post this one to rareclownfish.com or maybe the clown forum here to get more opinions.

[slojmn]

mwp, Thanks , now I see more spines...I didn't catch the spines in the white section. Okay...perc with a black ocellaris, hmmm. I'll head over to the clown forum and see what I get, rareclown.com sounds like a good resource as well.

[Luis A M]

Ocellaris male,Darwin female

[aomont]

Can anyone tell me where is the difference between percula and occelaris ?

I keep looking and the best I can come up with is "this clowns looks more like oc" or "this resembles a percula I saw some time ago"... Where is the signature ????

Anderson.

[mwp]

I believe that Percula have a lower first dorsal spine count than ocellaris (but I might have that backwards). The only other typical differentiation is that percula have heavier black margins on the fins and bars. Of course, that can go from looking pretty much like the orange fish above to something like the Onyx Percs I'm breeding. I'm by no means an "expert" in differentiating the two.

Luis, what makes you say the orange one is an Ocellaris?

Matt

[Baalz]

Both Ocellaris, one orange one black.

[David M]

Looks like occy to me too, the eye ring is not bright orange. I don't know how reliable that is but it's what I generally use to distinguish them.

[Luis A M]

Official taxonomy admits two species in the actinicola group,percula and ocellaris,based on the dorsal fin ray count.
But ocellaris from Darwin because of some reasons could be in the future given a full species status.In the meanwhile it would be convenient that we don´t mate ocellaris with Darwin´s unless we deliberately want to produce hybrid forms.

Fin rays are difficult to count in a live fish,though it is sometimes possible with a good picture of the dorsal fin.There are fortunately other characters to look at:

percula has bright yellow eye margins,and a low "first" dorsal fin.
Black borders of the bands are expanded to different degrees (not always,but I think in all the imported for the trade fish).

ocellaris has a muddy brownish orange eye margin,and a high "first"dorsal.

Darwin is similar to ocellaris but with a low "first" dorsal.It turns melanistic with growth.

Additionally percula shows a different bar development pattern,with 2nd and 3rd bars appearing much later.

[slojmn]

Luis, So you are suggesting not to try and raise the eggs from my pair unless I purposely want to create some hybrid fish?? Also, are you saying that in the future the Darwin may be seperated out from the ocellaris and given it's own species specification, further reinforcing the "hybrid" scenario? At this point though, they are both considered ocellaris, right? Enough folks think ocellaris male and darwin female, although some think percula male.

[Luis A M]

Originally posted by slojmn
Luis, So you are suggesting not to try and raise the eggs from my pair unless I purposely want to create some hybrid fish?? Also, are you saying that in the future the Darwin may be seperated out from the ocellaris and given it's own species specification, further reinforcing the "hybrid" scenario? At this point though, they are both considered ocellaris, right? Enough folks think ocellaris male and darwin female, although some think percula male.

Yes to everything,only that I say that we are free to mate ocellaris and Darwins if we wish,but being aware that we might be producing hybrids.This is a controversial subject,as well as the current concept of species.In the case of Darwin/ocellaris,I think both forms are geographically isolated.And there is a morphological difference.See the first dorsal which is low,flat.In ocellaris dorsal has two peaks,like camel humps.

[Baalz]

If the offspring are appealing and you can market them then go for it.
I always thought you would just get some orange and possibly some blacks out of the pairing.

[slojmn]

I think I might give it a try in the next few months. For now my pair spawn in a very difficult part of the tank for me to reach so I am going to try and introduce a tile back there that I can see and get to. It will either freak them out into moving their nest/not spawning for a while or they might take to the tile and I can easily remove it when the time comes. Things to ponder in the meantime.

[mwp]

I've heard that the cross between the Darwin strain and the regular Ocellaris tends to simply produce some black and some oranges, but not really a mix of the two. I don't know if there's validity in that or not.

Matt

[slojmn]

phendar posted in my other thread on the anemone and clownfish forum that he heard the babies turn out a "dirty orange". I'll be marketing them as Amber ocellaris clowns...or something exotic like that , if they come out mixed.

[slojmn]

mwp, I was just looking at your half black ocellaris thread and those pictures of your pair look just like I would imagine a cross between my pair might turn out to be if phendar's "dirty orange" suggestion came to be true. your pair are gorgeous . Your thoughts???