DSB Related Journals, Newspaper Articles, ETC...

[gregt]

This thread was automatically split due to performance issues. You can find the rest of the thread here: http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...60#post5499060

[Zedar]

Would I be correct in saying that a DSB without plants can never finish the cycle?
Dont plants remove the P and N and complete the life cycle?

I started a 65 gallon tank last Oct. Its lightly stocked with 3 fish lawmower,flame angel and saddleback.
Lighting is 2 175 14k hamiltons and 2 vho actinics.
Flow was moderate 900gph split between a upper and lower return on the closed loop and 900gph on the overflow.

I run a mud refugium with caluerpa no skimmer. Maintence was nothing I mean no water change or anything. Till june everything was fine. Then i started getting hair algae on the rocks and cyno on the thin layer of sand in my tank.

So I figured it was time for a water change I also added alot of flow.

After reading about BB I got to thinking that since my water readings for P and N where zero that their must have been P and N bound up in the sand and live rock. sure enough when i took a turkey baster to the rock i was shocked at how much detrus was on the rock. same in the cyno covered sand.

So i added flow....alot of flow. enough to keep the detrus in suspension. 1200 gph to the lower return behind the rocks on the bottom and 900 to the top thru a seaswirl. needless to say i had a sand storm in mins so i removed alot of the sand and im now down to enough to just cover the bottom. if moves around a little but no problem.

For a week i would come home and blow off the rocks with the turkey baster till i no longer got much detrus.

Well amasing in one week the hair algea is gone as is the cyno. The only problem is that i have LPS and softies not SPS
So what to do.
I run the high flow at night when they are retracked and go low flow during the day.
This has made a hugh difference in the tank.

I also do weekly water changes now. I remove any detrus that collects in the bare chambers in the refugium. during these water changes.

So to recap I have a intermittant high flow area in the main tank with little to no sand and low flow in the refugium.

I belive that i can stay problem free this way becasue the caleurpa grows like crazy in the fug removing the P and N from the cycle.

Be gentle im a n00b

[Yellotang]

Originally posted by Lefty
Ron speaks a little:

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=548275

Whaddya all think?

I don't like the fact that he says that in nature the P is 100's to 1000's of times higher then in reeftanks. Yes in some cases that is absolutely correct. But in the case that most of the studies are performed the levels are much lower then compared to our reef tanks.

I think he is the only person in the world that believes that P is bond in the animals and never ever released again.

[boxfishpooalot]

Originally posted by Yellotang
I don't like the fact that he says that in nature the P is 100's to 1000's of times higher then in reeftanks. Yes in some cases that is absolutely correct. But in the case that most of the studies are performed the levels are much lower then compared to our reef tanks.

I think he is the only person in the world that believes that P is bond in the animals and never ever released again.

Yea and if it were never released back into the water colum, then how would plants aquire phophorus. Wich they use to grow.

[vitz]

Originally posted by Yellotang
I don't like the fact that he says that in nature the P is 100's to 1000's of times higher then in reeftanks. Yes in some cases that is absolutely correct. But in the case that most of the studies are performed the levels are much lower then compared to our reef tanks.

I think he is the only person in the world that believes that P is bond in the animals and never ever released again.

that isn't the only thing he believes that no one else does

[Bomber]

Originally posted by Yellotang
I think he is the only person in the world that believes that P is bond in the animals and never ever released again.

We're coming up on the two year anniversary of this thread. How are we going to celebrate?

I've always wondered, since animals need habitat, but these animals seem to take up phosphate expotentially - what do they do when they run out of sand bed/habitat?

[boxfishpooalot]

Originally posted by Bomber
We're coming up on the two year anniversary of this thread. How are we going to celebrate?

I've always wondered, since animals need habitat, but these animals seem to take up phosphate expotentially - what do they do when they run out of sand bed/habitat?

Die and release phophours and nitrogen compounds back into the water colum?

[Yellotang]

Originally posted by Bomber
We're coming up on the two year anniversary of this thread. How are we going to celebrate?

I know how I am going to celebrate.

Hehehehehehe *hic* hehehehe

[kwjones]

2 years? Already? It seems like I just took the sand out of my tank and cooked my rocks a few months ago.

[Milamber]

I'll revive this thread with a question. A lot of this is over my head.

Would a shallow sand bed be similar to BB? With 1"- 2" of sand on the bottom and crabs and snails sifting and aerating would there be the potential for phosphor getting trapped?

[Bomber]

Mil, if you keep detritus - shallow, deep, or just dirty - it will trap, rot, and release phosphate.

The bacteria that you rely on to make your aquarium work - nitrificaton/denitrification - are the ones that do it.

[Milamber]

Hi Bomber,
Then are crabs and snails redundant or not necessary in a BB?

Also, will weekly 10% water changes dilute/flush out phosphate?

I am just starting my tank right now. I am waiting for my rock to finish cooking (one month in so far - don't know how much longer I can wait ).

I noticed that no one really has plants in their tanks. Would this make a difference? My LR has some little plants on it that have survived the cooking so far. Should I be pulling them off?

[vitz]

http://www.reefs.org/library/article...htbill_wc.html

[boxfishpooalot]

Dont be fooled. Its not super easy to run a bb tank. It takes time and the flow has to be set up perfectly. And dont think that all the nitrate is going to dissapear just by the skimmer removing ditritus. You also need bacteria to export, phytoplankton ect, wich absorb nitrates into their bodys.Then you export their mass, to export the nitrate.

The nitrate is signifigantly reduced in a properly set up bb tank. But you need to get the leftovers out by biomass.

[Milamber]

Sorry how are you exporting their mass? You use phytoplankton as sponges and then remove them?

[boxfishpooalot]

Phytoplankton are single celled free floating plant life. They make the water look like pea soup. Skimming removes them, along with everything they eat=phosphate,nitrate,ammonia ,ect. So yes removing them out of the water colum with a skimmer. Not by sponges.

But, leave 1 spec of ditritus in the tank and it will be more than phytoplankton can handle, nutrients will rise. Thats a bit exagerated, but really ther must be no dirt sitting more than an hour. Imo.

[Bomber]

Disclaimer: Box is having a hell of a time wrapping his head around running a BB tank. LOL

Box, you don't have to worry that much about a "spec" of detritus. And removing detritus with a skimmer - is - removing bacteria and the nitrigenous compounds associated with them.

From what you've said, you had a few inches of detritus in your sump and more behind your rocks. That's more than a "spec".

You really need to talk that sig/other of yours into letting you open that rock wall up in your tank and get some flow through it. Right now it's only acting like a big filter and catching and holding on to detritus and dirt.

[MiddletonMark]

I agree about that.

There's always a small dusting of detritus around my bottom somewhere ... and given what I've seen for growth/color over the long-term ... it's not a big issue.

But Box's point about it not being automatic/simple + might require some re-design of LR/flow ... don't disagree one bit.

[Shoestring Reefer]

Originally posted by MiddletonMark
There's always a small dusting of detritus around my bottom somewhere ...

Maybe you need a wet whipe.







Sorry Mark, I couldn't help myself. I'm celebrating. *hic*

[MiddletonMark]

Go right ahead

Just about time myself.

[Bomber]

Mike, what are you celebrating???

[boxfishpooalot]

Yes correct Bomber my sig/other is very picky with the way *she* set the rocks up. Women...

But anyways, cant wait to get it going the correct way and live the good life! Zero nitrate,phosphate undectectable, ect . I think a bb tank requires alot more money than a sand bed tank though.

Im really enjoying zero algae growth, even using tap water right now thats got 2ppm of phosphate in it! Thank god i just got softies right now. Heh.

[gman0526]

I found this while looking for info on marine sediments and PO4 release, thought I should add it here:

"
Iron–sulfur–phosphorus cycling in the sediments of a shallow coastal bay: Implications for sediment nutrient release and benthic macroalgal blooms
Tim F. Rozan, Martial Taillefert, Robert E. Trouwborst, Brian T. Glazer, Shufen Ma, Julian Herszage, Lexia M. Valdes, Kent S. Price, and George W. Luther III
Limnol. Oceanogr., 47(5), 2002, 1346–1354


We conducted a study to determine the seasonal relationship between iron, sulfur, and phosphorus in the upper sediments and pore waters of a shallow intercoastal bay. From April 1999 to September 2000, sediment cores were collected from Rehoboth Bay, Delaware. Analyses of the sediments in the upper 4 cm revealed that redox conditions controlled Fe-S-P concentrations in the sediments, pore waters, and overlying water. Monthly sampling showed a marked decrease in the reactive solid phase P pool (ascorbate leachable fraction, ASC-P) and sharp increases in soluble P (measured as PO43-) in pore waters and overlying waters, as the conditions became more reducing throughout the summer months. These changes were paralleled by decreases in the amorphous Fe(III) (ascorbate leachable fraction, ASC-Fe) and total Fe(III)oxyhydroxide pools [dithionite extracted fraction, Fe(III)2] and increases in solid FeS/FeS2. The release of soluble P from sulfidic sediments to oxygenated overlying waters only occurred during periods of solid FeS/FeS2 production, which indicates that Fe(III) oxides act as a barrier to diffusive P flux. During these anoxic conditions, the regenerative P appears to induce secondary benthic algal blooms and promotes eutrophication in these inland bays through late summer. By the late fall and into early spring, sulfide production diminished and oxic conditions were reestablished as indicated by increases in solid amorphous and crystalline Fe(III) oxides and decreases in FeS/FeS2 concentrations. During this period, increasing ASC-Fe concentrations correlated with increases in ASC-P concentrations and decreases in pore-water PO43-. The seasonal correlations between Fe-S-P indicate that Fe redox chemistry controls sediment P flux to the overlying water column."

Doesn't that last sentence sound a lot like what Jerel was talking about when Randy was asking about phospate binders? Granted I could've misunderstood the whole thing

PDF Doc:

http://www.ocean.udel.edu/cms/gluthe...ozan02aWeb.pdf