Turboflotor-like skimmer mod

[H.crispa]

Well folks, I went ahead and did it. I converted my cheapo Aquaclear 150 hang on tank to a turboflotor-style recirculating skimmer. I put two new lines in the skimmer body, one to pull out water and recirculate it through the main pump (it only pushes 1000 l/hr but whatever) and the other to be connected to a minijet 400ish. The original "in" and "out" lines retain their original functions. I also opened up the venturi intake quite a bit-- it was too restrictive from the factory. Here are the pics:









Now in the test phase on a 20 long that has been set up for a LONG time with no water changes at all and it has never been skimmed at all. Current residents are guppies, algae, amphipods, and "funk".

[H.crispa]

Next up I think I'll do a needle wheel mod to the main pump and move the venturi... maybe. I'm not sure the 1000 liter/hour pump could handle it without cavitating and ruining the whole effect.

[H.crispa]

Here I have a labled pic of what goes where and what is new/old.
This mod can be done with most low end and midpoint skimmers and even high end for that matter! I am taking a serious look at the sea clone to see if I can figure out a way to do it on one of those bad boys. My guess is within a week I'll have a working prototype. Maybe sooner. Maybe later. Depends on what else I find to occupy my ever-wandering mind.

Hmmm..... a bio ball modded MJ 1200 hooked up to this recirc mod in a sea clone. That could turn out to be a serious skimmer worthy of praise!

[H.crispa]

Ron had me take that backpack style skimmer from the tank in the back and do this same mod to it. Now the skimmer is functioning properly. By the way, if anyone would like to see either of these skimmers in action, stop by the shop. The backpack is where it always was and my skimmer, "The Octopus", is on the first 33 long on your left. I'll leave it down there for a while until I figure out which of my tanks I'm going to put it on.

Also, Ron and I were talking and came up with the idea of doing this modification to whoever would like it for $20.00 plus materials. Any takers????

Next up-- this mod on a sea clone.

[coralreefer]

Originally posted by H.crispa
Next up-- this mod on a sea clone.

Well get your tushie in gear
Especially since I have an extra seaclone and a minijet 606 sitting around

[H.crispa]

Amy, I have been thinking about this one and I am almost entirely convinced that this will be a cinch. It's all in the plumbing.

I was actually thinking of you when I decided to do this mod to the sea clone because I know you are a big fan of this often-ridiculed yet affordable skimmer. I use them myself on some tanks and often as a supplemental skimmer on other tanks in times of intense feeding or new additions etc. Really though the Super Skimmer has made the sea clone completely obsolete IMO b/c I have seen what the Super is capable of. I must say that effective skimmers are becoming more and more affordable as the technology gets older and more proven. I have an idea that could revolutionize skimming as we know it. This may be the innovation that leads to the next generation in skimming. It came to me in a drunken stupor and I immediately posted that "venture capitalist" post. I got one reply (via PM) and it took me a lot of rethinking to remember exactly what it was that I thought of. But I did. Never drink and post without writing down your idea! Anyway, I digress.

The main problem with the sea clone is that there is that "sweet spot" where you reach a sort of equilibrium between water flow and air introduction via the tuning valve. This is the spot where the turbulance keeps the air in suspension the longest while still introducing the maximum quantity of microbubbles, thus maximizing contact time in the skimmer's current configuration. This is a "problem" because the skimmer would greatly benefit from more air and slower water movement. Many have tried (myself included) via injecting additional air with an air pump and limewood diffuser. It does work. However there is a trade off.

The water flow through the unit remains constant and so bubbles tend to get into the aquarium. In addition, the foam produced gets wetter and wetter the more air you put in. That said a short aside is in order: The bioball mod goes a long way toward not only "chopping up" the air but also reducing the flow through the unit-- the primary cause of bubble introduction into the tank (which causes SERIOUS problems when you attempt to run ozone on the sea clone). This is why the bioball mod works so well in this skimmer and also goes a long way toward pointing us in the right direction for a mod that solves the puzzle.

The beauty of the recirc mod, turboflotor mod, or "octopus mod" as it has recently been named because of all the "arms" going in and out of the skimmer, is that it allows you to maintain that "sweet spot" with the main pump while simultaneously reducing the overall flow rate throught the skimmer. In addition, the flow rate is adjustable as well thus adding an additional degree of tunability to the skimmer (ANY skimmer).

What you end up with is a skimmer that processes the water inside the skimmer MUCH more thoroughly and without dumping bubbles into the tank and without producing wet foam and dilute skimmate. Ahh... but there is still a trade off! Always a catch isn't there?? Such is the art of engineering-- a series of compromises!

However, in this case, the trade off is hardly worth mentioning and the only reason I do is that many skimmer geeks-- with good reason-- hold dear as a property of their skimmers, an attribute known as "turn over" or "GPH" or other such appellations. Basically they are concerned with how much aquarium water is processed per hour-- a valid concern. However I submit that while this is a worthwhile attribute of a skimmer to examine, the more important attribute is how EFFECTIVELY the skimmer processes what it is FED! For example, if you feed your skimmer 300 GPH and it is only 50% efficient, you have not accomplished much. On the other hand, if you process 150 GPH and achieve 80% efficiency.... NOW YOUR COOKIN' WITH GAS!!!

[H.crispa]

So where was I??? Ah yes! Again, there is a "sweet spot". If you process 300 GPH x 50% efficiency, you get 150 gallons processed. If you process 150 gallons with 80% efficiency you get 120 gallons processed. OK, that was a BAD example. I'm pulling numbers out of the air here! However, it still illustrates my point quite well!!! You adjust the flow rate untill the water processed is MUCH greater than it would have been without the mod.

Honestly, there just ain't no way of getting any exact numbers here to work with unless you do trial and error using dish detergent in two identical set ups with a control bla bla bla..... You will just have to "feel" your way through it until you find the swet spot. But the beauty of the mod is that it finally solves the puzzle!

You get to use that sweet spot of the air flow/water flow rate of the MJ completely independent of the flow rate through the unit! So you can not only process the water in the unit much better but it also opens up the possibility of introducing more air via a pump/diffuser setup WITHOUT making wet foam and dilute skimmate!

As Ron so eloquently put it, "This mod proves that you CAN polish a turd! This changes everything. You can now take a cheapo skimmer and make it into a really good one." or something like that. If I misquoted you Ron, please feel free to correct me.

Sorry for the long post but I was on a roll.

[firefish2020]

No that about sums it up The mod is pretty incredible, prob the best mod I have seen anywhere that actually works long term. You wont believe the results IMO, I didnt.

[bneal3]

Hey. I like it maybe I have you plumb one for me... Well after I get back from New Orleans.. YEA!!!

Anyone know if the airport will let me carry any corals on the plane .. That is if I find something that I can't live without... Hope the Aquarium of the Americas is great.. ( anyone been there)

I will drop by the store to view it in actions when I am back..

[bneal3]

Well I think I found the place Coral Connection.. and guess what they are right behind the airport...

They have a large selection of LPS and SPS.. Mabye I will find that specail coral and just pick it up on my way back home...

[snowstar]

Jason --- have you been reading skimming101 on reeffrontiers? using the formulas of 20% air in column... the recirculating skimmer certainly makes skimming improvement much easier.... You are very correct lots of folks do worry about turnover through the skimmer - it's not the turnover it's all in the contact time. And slowing the water down in terms of turnover is one way it improve the contact time. Of course given many of todays skimmers - without putting the re-circulation mod on them it's impossible to slow down the turn over without drastically harming the bubble production - read venturi based skimmers...

Beckett skimmers while venturi based - can't operate on a recirculating mod because of the violence of the bubble production in the mixing box. They are tremendously effective skimmers but they rely on turn over and sheer volumn of bubbles created to do the job. For instance our beckett skimmer is currently using a 35 to 40 percent water to air ratio - yes 60 - 65% of the main skimmer column is air - the bubble production is just that violent. That is of course set up to run very dry foam as opposed to wetter foam and we are still getting just over 1 1/2 gallon skimmate every three to four days.

So you are definitely on the right track for most all counter current and venturi skimmers. Matter of fact, If I get a sedra maybe I could talk you into modding the lifereef skimmers on the 125...

[H.crispa]

I'll bet you could indeed.

[snowstar]

I'm already shopping..... got any recirculating pump suggestions? The sedra's seem to be hard to find. It needs to be an external/submersible pump....

[H.crispa]

You are the expert on this I'm afraid. I have to defer to you. Skimming is something I have only recently turned my attention to and so I'm still ramping up.

In any case, the choice of pumps is up to you. You know more than I and I have seen remnants of your work and it is stellar! Not to mention that you are very intellectual and inventive. So as far as I'm concerned this should be a pairing of minds for the engineering part.

The only thing I have on you that I will take the lead on is the actual working with the acrylic. Take a look at the "octopus". It darn near looks factory and it would look totally factory if I had not had to work around existing plumbing. In addition, I used this blue PVC cement instead of the clear stuff. I did this because my dad has a lot of experience with pool plumbing and he told me that this stuff is the duck's guts. Super resistant to corrosion and forgiving for expansion and contraction, yet still rated for potable water. Anyway, I digress. I have made many things out of acrylic (as we have discussed before) and I know EXACTLY what it will do and what it will not and how to get it to do what I envision.

That said, my only caveat for pump selection is that you must keep in mind that only a certain amount of air can be injected into a given column (reaction chamber). Too much and you will flood the floor at worst or make lots of watery skim at best. (This is why I think the octopus is currently maxxed out) My thinking is that if the reaction chamber is already full of froth from top to bottom, then an additional recirc pump needs only to recirc-- with NO additional air introduction. Also the question comes to mind, "At what point do you reach the point of completely diminished returns?"

After all, you can stir it up at a million GPH, but if there is not a sufficient "dead zone" for the foam to form and rise, then you run the risk of just pumping froth through your system without actually forming any foam. I do not know if I am correct in my line of thinking on this matter. So why don't YOU kick it around and see if you concur or disagree.

My thoughts are that we could add a second "reaction chamber" that feeds back into the primary to add additional reaction chamber volume, while still feeding into the same collection cup. Thus making full use of the additional recirc capacity. I hope you know what I'm talking about here. I probably have not explained it well enough here. However, given your experience and intellect, you might be able to wade through my idiotic musings and get the gist of what I'm trying to convey.

Well, enough for now. What are your thoughts????

P.S. Wait until I test my "next generation" skimmer. Maybe it will be a total bust. However, it might just be an idea that makes me a millionaire and takes skimming to the next level. We'll see.

[H.crispa]

And holy sheep dip! How incredible indeed! I never expected this kind of an improvement.

Pics:
1st is of the completed skimmer
2nd is the modded skimmer running on one of my 20 longs
3rd is the top of the skimmer ejecting what appears to be custard. Funny, I don't remember putting any egg whites into the tank. I had just plugged it in and was going to clean the collection cup when I noticed that it was already pulling skimmate out. Absolutely incredible!

[coralreefer]

Wow Jason holy sheep dip indeed

It's hard to believe THAT is a seaclone. Looks like we have a new project to work on soon.

I was actually thinking of you when I decided to do this mod to the sea clone because I know you are a big fan of this often-ridiculed yet affordable skimmer. I use them myself on some tanks and often as a supplemental skimmer on other tanks in times of intense feeding or new additions etc. Really though the Super Skimmer has made the sea clone completely obsolete IMO b/c I have seen what the Super is capable of. I must say that effective skimmers are becoming more and more affordable as the technology gets older and more proven. I have an idea that could revolutionize skimming as we know it. This may be the innovation that leads to the next generation in skimming. It came to me in a drunken stupor and I immediately posted that "venture capitalist" post. I got one reply (via PM) and it took me a lot of rethinking to remember exactly what it was that I thought of. But I did. Never drink and post without writing down your idea! Anyway, I digress.

I imagine many of your ideas come to you in that state

If I had to buy a skimmer for the 20 gallon I would definitely get a Super Skimmer but heck I paid good money for the Sea Clone 7+ years ago I might as well use it.
Actually with the bioload in this tank I could easily run it skimmerless. In fact I have in the past but after seeing what even a Sea Clone removes after say a heater explosion or an anemone passes through a seio I'd never do it again.

Funny, I don't remember putting any egg whites into the tank.

Since you did such a good job modding the Sea Clone I won't comment on that statement

[H.crispa]

Yes, just keep in mind this little tidbit: The sea clone is NOT made out of acrylic! It is made of clear PVC or some similar material. I discovered this after I heated up the spot where I was going to put in the first new line. I darned near ruined the whole thing. Just keep in mind that you can drill it just like regular plastic pipe-- no special precautions needed and when you heat it to poke through the PVC, be careful NOT to heat it up NEARLY as much as you would acrylic. The 2nd hole I did came out just right.

[H.crispa]

Oh yeah baby! It is tricky to tune but the results are amazing. For the first several hours, it pulled out a lot of watery skim that smelled badly like algae. As it continues to run, the skim is getting progressively thicker and darker-- and indication of greater efficiency by most accounts.

Downside: I have the air intake throttled way back and the introduction of new water into the octoclone is at about 100 gph or there abouts. Needle wheel mod??? Completely unnecessary. This skimmer is currently maxed out. To really take advantage of this new skimmer, I need to modify the riser tube in the collection cup by preferably installing a cone-shaped one or at the very least, a larger diameter one.

This will do two things:
1. It will make dryer foam and more concentrated skimmate
2. It will greatly DECREASE the storage capacity of the collection cup itself.

Solution? Easy! I'll just drill a hole in the bottom of the cup and drain it into a larger vessel. Then I sould be able to throttle up the air to maximum and possibly increase the new water introduction rate. Then, the new octoclone will enjoy a HUGE gain in efficiency. Honestly, out of the three skimmers I have fitted with this mod, the sea clone has impressed me the most.... by FAR!

Now, of course at this point, I'm thinking of injecting about 10mg/hr ozone into the octoclone! Oh boy will that clean up the water!

This also brings to mind a mod I did on the sea clone running on the 20 hex in my bedroom. I cut the "in" tube and mated it to a 2 inch diameter "downtube" as a sort of quasi-beckett mod. With the increased air/froth production on the octoclone, I could easily do this same mod but use a 3 or 4 inch "downtube" into the skimmer and drastically increase the total volume of the reaction chamber as well as enable me to further throttle up the new water introduction without the introduction of too many bubbles into the tank via the discharge.

I'm beginning to think I opened up Pandora's box here. But hey, I have taken three cheapo skimmers and turned them into quite effective pieces of equipment. Also, I have discovered that this mod enables you to further mod the skimmer to achieve even GREATER improvement! By the time I finish all these mods, I'll probably have more $$ in the octoclone than I could have spent on a "real skimmer" but it sure is FUN to tinker with these concepts! After all, tinkering, inventing, and modding are the things that are half the fun for me of this hobby in the first place!

[H.crispa]

Here are some pics some 8ish hours after the start of testing. One with flash, one without (with the brightness and contrast enhanced with Photoshop. Too dark to be propely seen in the original photo but no appearance or bubble enhancement... I don't color enhance my photos etc. When I post a pic it is WYSIWYG unless otherwise stated)

Also, keep in mind that this prototype is WAY throttled back in both new water introduction and AIR introduction and still yet the reaction chamber is FULL of dense froth.





After I fit the octoclone with the skimmer cup riser tube mod, then we will REALLY see what it is capable of. No ozone yet. I'm going to try and max it out "naked" first. I'm telling you now all you ridiculers of the sea clone, this thing takes to mods like a duck to water and it is fast becoming my star pupil!

Also notice, no or little bubble introduction into the tank.

[snowstar]

Hey Jason - Man have you been busy! I love turning a completely deranged creative mind loose with an idea... I would say that the octoxxxxx is looking great - but I really just can't. I pains me to think that anyone can make those things productive.

Anyway -- as for modding the lifereef --- let me let you look at the pic.



As you can see --- I think modding it may be a pain - I'm not sure since I don't work with acrylic.... but the acrylic riser within the primary reaction chamber leads me to an uh-o moment.... additionaly there is no easy way to take the skimmer apart with out literally rebuilding it.... it looks like the reaction chamber is only about 4" in diameterand really only about 10" high then it opens back into the 8" diameter primary chamber ---- not good or at least not efficient... let me know if you think it's modable.

the more I look at that skimmer, the more I despise it - don't get me wrong it's a good venturi skimmer - it pulls out several oz of dark brown/black gunk a day and the neck has to be cleaned every 3 to 4 days or the productivity of the skimmer goes way down hill...

I'm starting to think that starting from scratch may be a better option --- so think about this --- we have spoken about trying to make our tanks as easy to maintain as possible... think about incorpoating a "wet-neck" to a recirculating skimmer needle-wheel skimmer. I have about 32" to work with in the tank stand.... I'm thinking perhaps 8" diameter primary chamber - flanged going to a 3" diameter neck cup design may be optional - I'm really liking the cup-less beckett on the 180... it just goes up the neck and then rises and enters an elbow drain to a wast container that shuts off the skimmer if the waste container gets full.

As for you concept of a secondary chamber, something doesn't sit just right with that idea... I can't really picture it... all I can picture is the bubbles breaking and the skimmer losing efficiency when they get merged back into the primary chamer to get the proteins or the oxidized organics into cup... maybe dual cups.... but this seems like a lot to do to improve a skimmer... It may be better to "start over" if a second chamer is needed... again I just can't "see it".

Drawings or more info or both???

[H.crispa]

If you want to improve the waste removing capacity of the skimmer while simultaneously cutting WAY down on the time between neck cleanings, just squirt about 25mg/hr O3 in there. That will do the trick.

As far as modding your skimmer? Of course it can be done, silly.

[snowstar]

Good I'm sortof glad you are confident we can mod it - so do you think we just add the pump and let it introduce all those lovely tiny needle-wheel produced bubbles to the entire column - or do we somehow extend the pump output to the current bubble column inner cylinder? As for positioning of that inner cylinder, you maybe able to tell from the picture taht it is not centered it is really fairly close to the front wall of the skimmer... As you can see from the picture, the skimmer can stand a greater bubble production. As for needle-wheel vs. recirculation, I want to use a much smaller pump to feed the blasted skimmer to increase the contact time so the venturi will produce even fewer bubbles. Soooo ... I'm thinking an Oean Runner 2700 or 3700 (I think I've seen reference to an OR3700) as opposed to the sedra's - getting the modded sedra's seem to be difficult and expensive.

Then again modding the lifereef could be fun maybe if I bought you the acrylic, you could "open it up" at the top and when you put it back together, you could flange it so it could be a bit more maintance friendly - that way the inner column could be shortened to what is more commonly seen in most skimmers and the recirculation mod would then be easier.... Then again that sounds like a lot of work... maybe we can work out a design I'll get the acrylic and you can have one of the lifereef skimmers..... get the mod worked out and then maybe I could talk you into modding the second lifereef for the 20.... I just want to get better skimming on the 125 - 8oz a day of dark gunk is just not cutting it... my sand bed is gonna die a horrible death from detritus while my tangs poop and giggle while surveying their own private algea farm...that said, I really can't be without a skimmer for very long on it...

--- Yes O3 will clean it up but before I add ozone --- and Boomer and you have convinced me that I should run ozone --- I want to figure out how to do what the commercial skimmers do and use a wet neck add-on... then add the ozone and maybe UV - that should be a kick something detritus removal system.... it's kindof nice to have an experimental tank of lps/softies with a heavy bio-load jsut so I can work this sort of thing out before adding do anything to the 180....

[H.crispa]

Check this out! I was at Kroger and I saw these 1/2 liter diet sprite 6 packs and I knew what I had to do. Now the modding of the octoclone is complete:

[snowstar]

That looks pretty good.... now lets see it on that creature... with craa..crud in it! That may be a better taper than the coralife superskimmer or the turboflotor.... they taper off so small the best I have ever gotten from them is a brown skim.... One of the reasons I suspect that I get such a darker skim from the lifereef is the neck diameter never tapers so it takes more "umph" to get into the collection cup.

[H.crispa]

As you requested.