Grounding probe? waste of money?

[Country Boy]

I have a Sailfin Tang Appoximatly 8-9 inches, and has been getting slight small pin holes around his eye. I asked my LFS for an answer and was told to purchase a grounding probe. IS THIS CORRECT? I also read that it could be caused from the Sailfin not eating properly. Any Advice? FYI I have NEVER been shocked from my tank!

[AQUAN8TOR]

You don't necessarily need to be shocked to need a probe. EVERY saltwater tank should have one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


It could end up saving your life. Saltwater is an EXCELLENT conductor of electricity. Trust me on this. A probe is a small cost compared to even a cheap piece of coral.

[Country Boy]

None Of my LFS carry this product. They recomend the use of it, but dont carry it... Where might i find one? and how much is average cost? I appreciate your responce..Thank you

[strictly marine]

I have one instock it's 15 bucks

[Country Boy]

Not too familiar with Richmond area, How far from Williamsburg is your store? I know how to make it up 64 to the edge of Richmond....never really dared to venture into the city without a tour guide!..

[Country Boy]

Price Sounds Great though!

[strictly marine]

I am acutally not in richmond but 30 min south in a small town called hopewell. If you take 64 then get onto 295 south and get off at the hopewell exit. You can call me at the store after 12:00 If you need better directions. 804-452-0990
You will be on route 10 towards hopewell then come over the appomattics bridge. Make a left on the third light(eastbroadway) and then make a right at the first light(hopewll st) I am the second store on the left side.

[Charlie Davidson]

Everyone should have one!! Please, if you do not- go buy one today!!

[SunDragon]

Been meaning to get one. Ill see you around 1:00pm today mike!

[Country Boy]

Well I Hope You have more than 1 Me and My Wife are heading up there right around 12 also.

[Country Boy]

If not ...would still be nice to check out your store.

[SunDragon]

You can have it Country Boy. Its more necessary to you than it is for me at this time.

[jdieck]

Note that a GFCI is strongly recomended to be used when a ground probe is used. If you are grounding the aquarium you have more chances at being shocked or create a short circuit unless you use a GFCI.

[manderx]

yup. i've read several threads where electricians argued over what is best. the conclusion i've come to after reading them is the absolute safest is to have a ground probe and a GFCI. but a normal amount of leak from a powerhead can cause the GFCI to trip and leave your tank without power (think weekend trip). they also said if you don't use a GFCI, to *not* use a probe since the probe completes the circuit and the normal trace voltage in your tank turns into a small trace amount of current flowing in the tank which probably bad for the critters. without the probe, it doesn't flow (think bird on a powerline) so it doesn't really hurt anything. the problem of course is if there's big volts in the tank and then you complete the circuit. but i'm content with taking my chances. i figure any problem big enough to ruin my day will be pretty evident before i put my hands in (famous last words?). maybe one day i'll do it right and wire 2-3 separate GFCI circuits to the tank so if 1 trips i still have circulation pumps on other circuits going.

the reason they recommended a probe for that fish is they assume it has 'hole-in-the-head', and grounding is one of a million old reefer-myth cures for it that nobody's proven (my money is on general stress/nutrition). i saw an oscar once with HHLE that had 1 big festering hole in it's forehead big enough to stick your thumb in.

if anyone can't find one at the local stores by then, i'll bring my old one to the meeting for a few bucks. i've heard of some people finding titanium spokes at bike stores.

[Country Boy]

OKay Here we go....... I purchased a grounding probe from "strictly marine" (Mike) today....and also had the oppertunity to view his store and obtain sum very useful knowledge. Very NIce Store Might I Add.

Now...On the Electrical aspect... GFCI or not..... The Ground IS Constant whether it be a GFCI or standard Outlet... The Ground will always be there... SO what is the differnce in whether i use GFCI or not???? I can understand it tripping , but it is like a circuit breaker, IT WILL ONLY DISCONNECT THE POWER SIDE, of the outlet...your Negative Ground should Always be there. Am I Wrong?

Not trying to Create Conflict...just trying to understand the reason ....

[prop-frags]

I'll try to help out here.
The Grounding Probe provides a path to ground for any current that may be within your system. The advantage is that if your system ever becomes electrically charged, the current will flow from the tank to the earth ground provided by the grounding probe. This will be very helpful should your hands be in the tank as you knock a 1.3 amp pump into your sump with your foot.

The GFCI is a simple device that detects small (<10ma) differences in current between the hot and neutral sides of the outlet (which is called a Hot-to-ground fault). Most GFCI have a trip time of a few hundred milliseconds. So if you happen to be the most convenient path to ground for current coming from a GFCI outlet, you may feel a nasty shock, but you won't be fried or killed, assuming the GFCI trips correctly. Some GFCIs also detect differences between neutral and ground (which is called a grounded neutral fault). This can be a pain, because sometimes cheap equipment or bad wiring can leak tiny amounts of current from neutral to ground, and the GFCI will be tripping. Then you have to go unplugging stuff one at a time to find the faulty gear.

The last thing in all of this is the circuit breaker. These clever devices work on a heat-sensitive tripping design. If the current draw through the breaker heats it past it's tolerance rating, it will trip. RELYING UPON A BREAKER ALONE IS A DANGEROUS AND STUPID MISTAKE FOR REEFKEEPERS! If you are in the terribly unlucky position to be the path to ground for a 15 or 20 amp circuit under maximum current load, you will most likely be killed before the breaker trips.

I hope I got all this right - I'm an amatuer eletrician. Not certified or anything like that. Can any of you electricians confirm?

[Country Boy]

So IS IT NECESSARY to Have a GFCI? Or will a Standard Connection to a GROUNDED SOCKET work?

manderx kinda threw me off alilitle, in his post...

I would hate to Ground it and create More Flow of electricity ( if that is the case)... PLease advise....

Calling all Reefers...... Need Advice..

[jdieck]

The grounding probe can be plugged to any grounded (three prung receptacle but the circuit(s) feeding the power to the aquarium equipment need to have GFCI installed to protect the aquarist.

A GFCI does not make the ground probe either necessary or un-necessary but a ground probe makes a GFCI necessary.

Here is the long and detailed answer so please stay with me.

There are several possible cases or scenarios of short circuit in an aquarium system.

Scenario 1. Hot line to water via submerged equipment. This is when a submerged piece of equipment like a powerhead, heater or UV lamp fails and the hot line of the power supply gets in contact with the water:

a) No GFCI and No Ground Probe.
As the tank is isolated from ground via plastic piping and wood stands the water becomes energized to 110 V but the main breaker does not trip as there is no current to ground. Fish has no problem because they are in a situation similar to a bird standing on a power line. This is a VERY DANGEROUS situation for the aquarist because as soon as you touch the water you get electrocuted as you become the path of current to ground. Breaker does not trip as there is not enough time for it to act or enough current to create enough heat. (They are slow trippers)

b) GFCI installed but no Ground Probe: Again nothing happen initially but the tank gets energized to 110 volts. as soon as you touch the water the GFCI will trip within 5 milliseconds and below a current of less than 5 milliamps. You may feel a small shock but nothing enough to hurt. This is the safest situation for the tank critters but may still hurt the aquarist mainly if the GFCI is malfunctioning.

c) GROUND PROBE INSTALLED BUT NO GFCI (Our case of discussion in this thread): As soon as the device fails and a short circuit is established then current is established to the ground probe, current may or may not be high enough to trip the breaker. Fish and critters will die and corals will RTN. If the breaker does not trip (Which is most of the cases) the short circuit may not be noticeable and you will be at a loss of why your critters are dying, even if you touch the water you may not notice unless the ground probe is not making a good ground. (See also Scenario 3c below) This is also a dangerous situation for potential fire. The current could be high but not high enough to trip the breaker, wires heat up, insulation melts and they catch fire.

d) Ground Probe Installed and GFCI installed: As soon as the short circuit is established the GFCI will trip shutting down whatever equipment is connected giving you a physical indication there is a short and something bad for you to fix immediately. This is the safest situation for the aquarist but has the downside that if you are away from the tank for a long time the lack of operating vital equipment may put your critters at risk.

So under this scenario the safest for the aquarist is to use both a GFCI and a ground probe. The next safest is to use GFCI alone.

[B]Scenario 2: Short circuit between hot line and neutral on submerged equipment:[B/]

a) No GFCI and No Ground Probe: device and line will over heat. if current is high enough breaker will trip but it may take some time 10 seconds up to 5 minutes depending on the quality of the short. Plastic parts or rubber seals on the device may melt creating a secondary short reviewed under scenario 1 and releasing toxic chemicals into the water also copper wire may get exposed also releasing copper sulphate and other copper compounds to the water. Large mortality of critter is most probable.

b) GFCI installed but no ground probe: GFCI will not activate even if a secondary short to water is created as the water is not grounded and there will be no leakage current to create a current un-balance between hot and neutral so GFCI will not be able to detect the situation. Here as in 2a above (as well as 2c below) you are dependant on the breaker.

c) Ground probe installed but no GFCI: Same situation as in 2a above but if a secondary short is created current will be established killing the tank inhabitants but just probably faster than the toxic chemicals or copper compounds. Here you are dependant on the breaker.

d) GFCI and ground Probe installed: If a secondary short is created this will be same as 1d above, GFCI will trip reliving both the short circuit and disconnecting the power to the device probably preventing or reducing the damage by chemicals or copper. If no secondary short develops again you depend on the breaker.

Here again the safest alternative will be GFCI and ground probe installed although will not be effective if a secondary short to water is not established. Note that as mentioned above a short from hot to neutral may create a fire as the wires may get hot enough to initiate it.

There is a new device in the market that will replace the breaker and designed for this kind of fault. It is called an AFCI (Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter) This device will fulfill the functions of a breaker but while a breaker rely on the heat of the wires created by the short circuit which makes it slow an AFCI detects the arc on the short circuit acting immediately. For full protection under scenario 2 an AFCI in the main panel plus a GFCI in the outlet and a ground probe in the tank will provide for full protection.

[B]Scenario 3: Short circuit from hot to a metal part of a non-submerged device and there is no current to trip the device as the metal body is not grounded:[B/] This is typical of a lighting fixture to whome one of the light bulb wires toches the reflector or the metalic hood or when some of the wiring of external pumps short to the pumps body and the body of the pump is not grounded.

a) No ground Probe and no GFCI installed: As the fault is external to the aquarium the aquarium does not get energized and no effect. If you touch the device depending on how well insulated from ground you are (rubber soles vs bare foot, globes vs bare hands etc) you may just get jolted or may get electrocuted.

b) GFCI installed but no ground probe: If you are touching the water and touch the device the GFCI will trip even if the short is within the external device. Typical of this fault is when a termial on a lamp in the hood gets shorted to the hood itself via salt creep. you are working in the water while you touch the hood with your arm or shoulder.

c) Ground probe and no GFCI: This is one of the the main reasons why probes shall not be installed unless a GFCI is also installed. The water will be perfectly grounded. If you are working in the water and touch the device you will get badly shocked or electrocuted even is you yourself are electrically insulated by the use of rubber soles or such.

d) Ground Probe and GFCI: GFCI will trip as soon as you touch the body of the device saving you once more.

For this scenario the safest will be 3b and 3d above. To make this a really safe situation: i) Use only devices installed with three prong plugs they usually ground the body using the third prong.
ii) Replace the plug and wire of any device to a three pong plug and connect the green wire to the body of the device. (The metal hood, the body of the ballast, the casing of the pump etc.)
Note that many power heads only use 2 prong plugs, if possible select one with three prongs. (Maxi jets used to have three prong wires and plugs but they were replaced with a lighter insulation wire and two prong plugs. It is still unclear to me why. Cost?, Did not want to potentially ground the water? Only they know)

[B]Scenario 4: Short from hot to neutral or grounded body of an external device:[B/]

Under this scenario for all cases you will be dependant on the breaker. If the current is high but the breaker is slow on acting there might be a fire. The use of an Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter instead of a breaker will reduce the fire possibility.

[B]Scenario 5: Short from Neutral to water:[B/] As usually the neutral wire is grounded either at the outside were the wires enter the house or at the main nothing happens unless this neutral grounding is not perfect some small voltage may develop creating the following situation:

a) No GFCI and No Probe: nothing will happen, you may detect small voltage of the water to ground, if you touch the water you may feel a small shock if you are not insulated enough.

b) GFCI but no ground probe: if you touch the water and the voltage is high enough to generate at least 5 milliamps the GFCI will trip.

c) Ground probe but no GFCI: The small voltage may create a permanent small current, this may be enough to start killing the most sensitive critters, (Pods and Snails) and create coral RTN over long term.

d) GFCI and Ground Probe: same as 5b above. If the current is below 5 milliamps it may still create a small current which may affect the tank inhabitants but in a lesser degree given the smaller current level than 5c above.

So in summary overall the safest for the aquarist will be the installation of AFCI, GFCI and Ground Probe. The safest for the inhabitants will be AFCI and GFCI without ground probe. This is the reason why many aquarist do not use ground probes (but will always use GFCIs) specially traveling ones that stay away for extended periods of time. If you have a remote alarm system installed that may page you or send you an E-Mail in case of a fault (Like the aqua controller from Neptune Systems) you shall have no doubts and have your Probe installed with your GFCI's)

Opposite the most dangerous situation is not having at least a GFCI. By the way many states, city or county electrical codes require installation of GFCIs on any location where electrical equipment may be exposed to water like outdoors, kitchens, bathrooms, aquariums, spas etc. If this is the case and there is an accident or fire the insurance company MAY NOT PAY. so be warned.

I hope this long explanation may save some of us out there from at least a couple of jolts. By the way it is not smart (Trying to be nice an not saying plainly stupid) to use one-self as a test subject. I had a friend who got a small shock while testing a hood, he kept on shcocking himself trying to find out where the short was! Get a multi tester is you need to do this.

Enjoy and happy reefing!

[Country Boy]

Wow..Well Explained... My Hats Off to you.. I think someone needs to copy this and publish it on the Site...lol IM sorry you had to go through all that ..but in the long run...it clarifies things alot. Thanks again..

Reagon

(why do so many aquarist's claim lateral line is due to electrical current flowing in the water, If bird on wire theory is correct?) with no ground probe..they shouldt be affected..so why so many claims to this? Health and food sound more like the right direction?

[jdieck]

For those who wonder about stray voltage/current, here goes another long one with more detail that you would like on what could be a controversial issue.

Have you ever wondered what the snail sitting on the PH power cord or PH body is feeling?
In trying to answer what in my opinion is the different effects between static voltages, induced voltage etc. I will need to enter in more detail and compare what I think are the different effects. I may be risking being flamed by puritan engineers out there but I will still try to pass the point along and forgive me if I get a little too technical so it will be OK if you just by-pass this post and get on with your life although I think it is interesting for some of us folks out there wondering about these things.

I will try to define in my own words (read it as layman's terms and forgive me if my Spanish is not that good) the different ways voltage may be created in our tanks as it is the voltage what generates the electrical current that affects our critters and ourselves. Having said that I will not try to attempt to clearly prove or define the actual level at which the critters get adversely affected as this may be a much debatable issue although my personal point of view is that anything can affect the living things in our tanks; it is just a matter of how much is too much. Too much of anything usually will affect negatively, think of too much food, too much alkalinity, too much calcium, too much trace elements, too much metals and so on.
So in order to define the potential for damage due to electrically related issues a point may be just to compare current amounts for different cases.

OK so back to what may create voltage in our tanks:

Stray Voltage: This is any voltage differential (or potential) created involuntarily in our aquariums by the use of related electrical equipment and that can take the form of Static Voltage or Induced Voltage.

Static Induced? Voltage: This is a voltage or differential potential across a dielectric (insulating material) but has very little capacity for permanent current generation. This is the kind of voltage we get on a capacitor. For more familiarity it is the kind of voltage we get when rubbing our socked feet on a carpet and the one responsible for the little shocks we might get after being "charged" and then touching a grounded item. This charge is possible because air and the sole of our shoes or wood floors can be considered a good insulator or dielectric. Note that I used the "Induced" word basically to note that an external device rather than the electrical definition of Induced that is mostly associated with magnetic induction could generate it.

Battery effect Voltage (shall I call it Ionic Voltage?): For the purpose of this discussion there is potentially voltage generated by the movement of ions between two electrodes, similar to what is created in a battery.

Magnetically Induced Voltage: This is the voltage mostly associated with the effect of magnetic fields on a conductor material. This voltage has the capacity for permanent generation of current as far as the inducing field (or generating device) is in operation. The capacity for current generation can range from very small to very large depending on the source, the strength of the magnetic field and the effectiveness with which that magnetic field is transmitted to the receiving conductor. A transformer is very effective as it was designed to transfer the field trough a very effective magnetic conductor (pure Iron) in very close proximity with the generator and receptor (Primary and secondary coils), on the other hand depending on the operational voltage, a transmission line may be generally consider a poor generator although some lines operating in the hundreds of thousands of volts could generate a good potential in close proximity. This is as an example a voltage generated by the magnetic field of a powerhead on the salt water which is a conductor.

Voltage from a power line: This is a voltage created by the power circuit hot line getting in touch with the casing of a device or the water itself by a bare wire or damaged insulator. A cracked heater glass, a cracked epoxi encapsulation in a powerhead, a melted ruber seal of a sterilizer etc.)

As mentioned above a magnetic field can generate voltage so...
Magnetic field: Any current passing trough a conductor generates a magnetic field around it and vice versa any magnetic field as mentioned before can generate voltage in a conductor (and current as a result). This field is similar to the field around permanent magnets or earth's magnetic field. The higher the current the higher the field generated.
This effect is purposely used very effectively in creating movement in the electric motors moving our pumps and power heads or transforming power in our lighting ballasts. It is also, not purposely but created as a side effect on devices like heaters, UV sterilizers, ozone generators and by fluorescent bulbs.

Going trough this list and trying to define the potential for damage here is some of the reasoning:

Static voltage can be generated in several ways like the charged plastic casing of a power head, wiping the acrylic pane of your aquarium may be some examples. The exact mechanism of it's creation may not be very relevant here but the fact that it is there. Unlike air, salt water is basically a soup of ions (Randy: forgive me for this simple definition), this static voltage is easily dissipated within the tank when those ions migrate between the high and low potential areas within our tank. Although this voltage is measurable (and in our tanks can be measured in the 30 to 80 volts range) in my opinion it is not a real problem, as it cannot generate currents that might affect our little friends in the box.
Similarly to the Static Voltage, the battery effect in my opinion also has no potential for damage because unless we create a giant battery by introducing two dissimilar metal electrodes in our water it is mostly self-contained and not significant compared to other sources. This voltage has been measured in the 5 to 10 volt range in an aquarium where all electrical devices have been disconnected.
In this case GFCI with or without grounding prove will have little effect other than removing the voltage without creating an actual damaging current.

Line voltage from a hot line can definitively devastate our tanks and has the potential to kill and this is why the National Electrical Code now require the installation of GFCIs in all circuits that can expose us to electricity and water (aquariums, pools, spas, bathrooms, laundry, kitchen etc.).
Voltage is usually same as the line voltage (usually 120 volts in the US and 220 Volts in Asia, Europe and parts of South America). Given the power in the lines this has the potential to generate currents above 30 amperes depending on the electrical installation in our tanks. This is what can get us killed if the casing of one of our devices or the water tank itself is in contact with the hot line and we touch it.
To protect the wiring from potential fire, breakers are installed that will trip when the current is higher than the carrying capacity of the wires. As this capacity is higher than what is needed to kill us, this is why there is the need to add GFCI devices that act faster than the breaker (usually only 5 to 10 milliseconds) and activate when a short to ground (like ourselves) creates a current of more than 5 miliamperes. Unfortunately as the GFCI needs current to ground to activate, it may not activate at all if the short is between the hot line (usually black wire) and the neutral line (usually the white wire). In order to prevent this potentially dangerous situation this is where a grounding probe used when using GFCIs may be of the most benefit as it will provide a path to ground so the GFCI trips before we can get shocked and will create a recognizable signal (whatever connected to the GFCI turns off) that can help us determine that something wrong needs to be fixed.
On the other hand if the GFCI trips and you are on vacation as mentioned in my previous post your tank will be affected given the lack of circulation, lighting and purification. So you may need to choose between personal protection or aquarium life protection. I personally together with the GFCI's I decided to use ground probe for protection in this case.

The real controversy in the use of ground probes comes from the potential effects of small currents generated by the last in the list, which is the magnetically induced voltage. It is generally accepted that current affects our critters. As mentioned above a high current will kill everything and a small enough current may have no effect and the controversy as usual in this hobby is born from not knowing how much is too much. There are advocates in the sense that any current no matter how small is damaging and advocates that small currents as those encountered in natural environments will not be detrimental.
In this case the use of a ground probe (Never use it alone but in conjunction with the GFCI) will eliminate the voltage but create a current to ground. Measured voltages are in the range of 50 to 115 volts and the currents in this case are in the order of nanoamperes (billionths of Ampere) See Gerry Parkers reference below. So in this case we need to decide whether to live with an induced voltage of 80-volt levels or live with a current in the nanoampere levels.
According to Gerry Parker (and possibly Dr. Ron Shimek may help us to verify) there is no natural environments where 80 volts are usual but, in the oceans there are currents higher than those detected in his tested aquarium so in principle by using a ground probe you will be creating an environment closer to nature with the added on benefit of the protection from the previous scenario.
As an opposing view you can refer to the writings of Robert Michelson also listed below although personally I believe Michelson opposes more to the current generated by faulty equipment (as described in the hot line short scenario) when using the probe than to the currents found by Parker in a properly functioning aquarium.

References:
Parker, Gerry; "Voltage in the Aquarium"; http://www.reefs.org/library/aquariu...98/1298_3.html
Michelson, Robert, "Ground Probes"; http://avdil.gtri.gatech.edu/RCM/RCM...ingProbes.html

[jdieck]

Originally posted by Country Boy

(why do so many aquarist's claim lateral line is due to electrical current flowing in the water, If bird on wire theory is correct?) with no ground probe..they shouldt be affected..so why so many claims to this? Health and food sound more like the right direction?

Reagon:

As many fish are sensitive to small electrical currents and seems that their sensory organs are along the lateral line it is assumed that electrical currents may affect those fish. In reality, if all our devices are working properly self contained induced currents IMO are not high enough to hurt out critters.
Unfortunately although we work very hard at maintaining or systems free of algae and within the proper parameters (just look at how many threads regarding phosphates, calcium and alkalinity) not many of us are adamant enough to periodically test clean and or replace out electrical equipment. In addition this hobby is expensive enough so many of us look for the cheapest equipment which might not be the safest or the best suitable to prevent higher than normal currents also encountered in nature.

[Utopian Reefer]

Very well done jdieck!

I would like to suggest that many hardware stores and home improvement centers are carrying plug-in GFCI addapters that require no wiring skills and may well save your life or your home. :-)

[jdieck]

Thanks, here some threads about different serious situations. Something to notice is that in all these incidents the breaker did nothing to help the situation!

False contact on plug almost causes fire:
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...=Electric+Fire

Another strip fire:
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...=electric+fire


Sometimes we create the short circuits ourselves:
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...=electric+fire

Fire caused by fluorecent end cap short circuit:




A seemingly defective designed device: By the way I had one, I opened to replace the bulb and found out that despite not being subjected to salt water the light bulb plug was completely corroded.
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...t=chiller+fire

Another end cap fie:
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...t=chiller+fire

Chiller cought on fire: In this case a poor design having the water connections on top makes the chiller very succeptible for leaks to drain inside the chiller's electrical wiring causing a short.
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...t=chiller+fire


Another design or manufacturing issue:
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...e&pagenumber=1

Heater top melted and killed everything:
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=493054

Float switch initiating a chain reaction:
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...ht=heater+fire

Another heater:
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...ht=heater+fire

One more:
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...ht=heater+fire

Well I think everyone gets the idea

[Charlie Davidson]

BUMP^

[prop-frags]

I feel so, inadequate, now.