Growing rotifers for clownfish larva

[JHardman]

OK, in keeping with the idea of talking about some more advanced topics in this forum...

I am getting really fed up with grow phytoplankton. It is time consuming, subject to crashes, contamination, etc, etc. So I am considering switching to a prepared phytoplankton product and convert the culture station to something more useful like mysis and brine shrimp culture area.

What has made me not "pull the trigger" and order some "instant algae" is the price. I have read the information on it, and sounds like an ideal replacement. I know that there are a lot of breeders, include the big ones that do not grow phytoplankton.

So the first part of this post... Do you have any experience or thoughts about using a prepared phytoplankton product to grow/feed rotifer cultures? What would make you switch? How do you feel about the cost?

Second I tried an experiment... After reading a post in the fish breeding forum (I think) that suggested using an ammonia binder in rotifer cultures to increase densities. So I restarted two ~5gallon cultures. I had each 5g jerry can filled to 3g level at a SG of 1.020 and added 1L of rotifer water at an equal density to each can, added phytoplankton (nanochloropsus) to each in the same amount. I added (1) teaspoon of AmQuel to one culture and not the other. I let the rotifers clear the phytoplankton then fed lightly for (2) days, then stop feeding for (2) days. Today I drained and restarted the cultures.

The results in a less than scientific manner...

The culture without AmQuel was nearly devoid of rotifers. I barely had enough to restart a viable culture.

The culture with AmQuel was VERY dense. I pulled a liter to restart and sieved the rest of the ~4.5 gallons. In the 53µm sieve I had a think ~1/16" thick layer of rotifers. That is the most I have ever had in the sieve.

So from now on, I am adding an ammonia binder to the rotifer cultures.

So what are your thoughts and experiences with growing rotifers for clownfish larva?

[richardb42]

cool experiment - did you ever measure the ammonia levels in the cultures?

[JHardman]

Originally posted by richardb42
cool experiment - did you ever measure the ammonia levels in the cultures?

No I didn't, should have but didn't. I wouldn't be able to with the AmQuel one, as it only binds the toxic ammonia. It doesn't remove it.

[Tabizan]

I've had enough of greenwater cultures as well , I also have been looking into the instant-algae solutions and I'm going to give it a go , I've ordered some Nannochloropsis concentrate , and I'm going to use it in a solution of Cloram-x and see what happens.

My winter project is to build a 'Instant Algae Continuous Rotifer System' , as described here , I've found the sources for all the parts including the drum filter , just need to get my tools out and build the thing. I'm going to purchase a digital camera to keep you updated , if you wish.

[Pumba]

Is it possible to use HUFA enrichment products?

Over here we can get HUFA enrichment liquids and powders which claims to completely replace the need for phytoplankton when using rotifers.

They aren't cheap, however could only equate being easier and cheaper in the long term than growing phyto, surviving crashes, contamination and also the running costs of growing phyto.

Any thoughts?

Cheers,
Matt

[mobert]

I've done both---grown nanno and used Instant Algae. I've found that with Instant Algae, there is a trick to using just enough to keep the culture light green. Too much or too little, the rotifers don't do so well. Once you figure out the correct amount for the given density, everything is pretty easy except it needs a few drops twice a day every day. If you forget, it suffers. Whereas with nanno, I can just green it up and it'll still be ok for days.

I also use 7 drops of Amquel per gallon of phyto culture media. Although I use RO water, everything seems to be more stable with good rotifer density.

I bought a liter of Instant Algae and divided it into 2 ounce bottles which I sold at cost at my local reef club. I like this product better to feed my reef because of the reasons on the supplier's web site.

[oceanarus]

Amquel! Thank you!!!!

I have been struggling keeping up with rotifer production as of late. Recently experienced a total wipe-out and had to order live cultures to restart. But still things aren't going well right now.

Now that I think about it, I started off in the beginning using tapwater treated with amquel and everything was fine, and now that I am using RO w/o amquel, I just can't keep the production up. All these babies are just eating them up faster than I can culture them even with about 30 gallons of rotifer cultures going.

As for the instant algea, I have contemplated switching to it, considering the time, space and materials used to support culturing phyto.

[Morgman]

I have switched over from growing algae to instant algae lately and I have had much more success. I also keep the salinity at something near 1.017. I have been using dechlor just as an after thought and I have not done any experiments. The dechlor seems to work because my cultures seem more dense than before.

Another thing I have noticed is when cleaning out my cultures I don't scrub them spotless. I have had better success allowing some algae and biological activity grow on the sides of my 5 gallon buckets. I did two batches a few weeks back where I scrubbed one clean and the other was just wiped down with my hand to knock off lose algae. I started the cultures with new saltwater and the one that was wiped down rebounded much faster than the one scrubbed clean.

I think Instant Algae is worth the prices because it takes so much time to maintain phyto. Not to mention all the crashes. I had so much trouble synchronizing all my algae:rotifer:larval productions that it got to be a pain.

After visiting C-Quest and Joe Lichtenbert I realized growing algaes is a waste of time and not worth the effort, since these guys don't grow their algae anymore. Time is valuabe and better spent on maintanence or other feed cultures. Just as John pointed out.

One last point. I did notice at that Joe Lichtenbert does not light his rotifers. I was wonder if you guys light your cultures or not. I do because I like to see the rotifers and I think in Frank Hoff's plankton book he says something about light and rotifer growth. Maybe I will try a few cultures without light and see if they are better or worse.

[mobert]

Randy Reed at Reed Maniculture (supplier of rotifers and Instant Algae) says they don't light their roifers Less bacteria that way. I light mine when I use live phyto.

Also, I bet the cost of Instant Algae is not so much once you figure the cost of lights and air pump for growing live phyto. Another plus is, the Instant Algae can be frozen (in the little bottles) for years without degragation.

[JHardman]

Originally posted by Morgman
I think Instant Algae is worth the prices because it takes so much time to maintain phyto. Not to mention all the crashes. I had so much trouble synchronizing all my algae:rotifer:larval productions that it got to be a pain.

After visiting C-Quest and Joe Lichtenbert I realized growing algaes is a waste of time and not worth the effort, since these guys don't grow their algae anymore. Time is valuabe and better spent on maintanence or other feed cultures. Just as John pointed out.

One last point. I did notice at that Joe Lichtenbert does not light his rotifers. I was wonder if you guys light your cultures or not. I do because I like to see the rotifers and I think in Frank Hoff's plankton book he says something about light and rotifer growth. Maybe I will try a few cultures without light and see if they are better or worse.

Your rotifers will actually do better in total darkness, unless you are trying to more or less co-culture with live phytoplankton. I keep my 5g jerry cans of rotifers in a room with a south facing window, other than that there is no lights on them.

The only thing I am having a problem getting over is the price. I want to continue to use nanochloropsus and T-Isocrysis. So I am looking at something like $150 for 2L of each with shipping (I assume the shipping is overnight).

So how does a 1L bag of nanochloropsus or T-Isocrysis compare to a home culture as far as usage? In other words I feed about 2L of home grown nanochloropsus to each 5g rotifer culture each day. So how is this going to compare to the instant algae?

[oceanarus]

That's funny, a 1L quantity on this page http://www.instant-algae.com/prices/index.htm is $40 with other smaller sizes available.
And on this page, http://www.instant-algae.com/prices/index.htm they claim their nano product (don't say which size) is equivalent to 3600 L of live culture.

Bottom line, if I can buy a liter for $40 and it will be the equivalent of 3600 L of live culture I've had to maintain - I'm sold!

I would like to hear from people that are using this as to how far a liter of their stuff goes.

[oceanarus]

OK that's wierd. No matter where you go on their website, the same addy shows up in the location bar. So I'll have to navigate you. After you go to the first link I posted, click on "Click here for the Aquarium Products price list" and you will see the page I was talking about.

For the second link, after you click on it, click on the word "Nannochloropsis" right below the Microalgea products title. Then scroll down that next page and click on "For a comparison to other Instant Algae® products click here"

Wish it didn't have to be this confusing sorry

[JHardman]

Originally posted by oceanarus
That's funny, a 1L quantity on this page http://www.instant-algae.com/prices/index.htm is $40 with other smaller sizes available.
And on this page, http://www.instant-algae.com/prices/index.htm they claim their nano product (don't say which size) is equivalent to 3600 L of live culture.

Bottom line, if I can buy a liter for $40 and it will be the equivalent of 3600 L of live culture I've had to maintain - I'm sold!

I would like to hear from people that are using this as to how far a liter of their stuff goes.

OK that was what I was looking for!

I am gung ho for the nanochloropsus, but the T-Isocrysis looks kind of weak.

My nanochloropsus is generally between 13m/mL and 19m/mL which is equivalent to Randy's comparison. But the T-Isocrysis he is comparing to 2.6m/mL which is way less dense than I generally grow it, mine is generally about 13m/mL to 17m/mL, but then again it is half the price of the nanochloropsus too.

BTW check those prices again, the 1L of nanochloropsus is $72 not $40.

[mobert]

You will find that a few drops goes a long way. I think I was using 3-5 drops in the morning and again in the evening for a gallon of rotifers. 10-20 drops per day for my 240 gallon reef.

[oceanarus]

Like I said, go to the page that is the aquarium products price list I described how to get to above, and the 1000mL (same as 1L) of the rotifer diet (which is nanno) is $40.

[JHardman]

Originally posted by oceanarus
Like I said, go to the page that is the aquarium products price list I described how to get to above, and the 1000mL (same as 1L) of the rotifer diet (which is nanno) is $40.

That looks like a "watered down" version. He doesn't list the concentration for a good comparison. I would like to see a density comparison before I would say that it is a better price. I am betting it is quite a bit less dense.

If I get the time tomorrow I will call them and ask.

[oceanarus]

Originally posted by JHardman
That looks like a "watered down" version. He doesn't list the concentration for a good comparison. I would like to see a density comparison before I would say that it is a better price. I am betting it is quite a bit less dense.

Good call. I guess I was just assuming they were trying to give us hobbyist/breeders a break

Do let us know what you find out!

[JHardman]

Originally posted by oceanarus
Good call. I guess I was just assuming they were trying to give us hobbyist/breeders a break

Do let us know what you find out!

I dug a little deeper on the site...

The "rotifer diet" is listed as 19b/mL of nanochloropsus and the instant-algae nanochloropsus is listed as 68b/mL. So the instant-algae is about 3.5 times denser than the rotifer diet.

So we can say the instant-algae is the better buy.

I guess I am going to give them a shot. I will get a 1L of nanochloropsus and a 1L of T-Isocrysis. I only feed rotifers T-Isocrysis shortly before going into the rearing tank and once they are in co-culture with larva.

[mobert]

The Rotifer diet says, "Thinner formula is easier to pour and dose". So does this mean it has less than the 68 billion cells per ml. that the regular Instant Algae has?

[oceanarus]

Originally posted by mobert
The Rotifer diet says, "Thinner formula is easier to pour and dose". So does this mean it has less than the 68 billion cells per ml. that the regular Instant Algae has?

JHardman can read your mind in the future, he answered your question 1hour and 7 minutes before you posted it! WOW!

j/k

[mobert]

OMG! I can't read when it looks like technical stuff. Doh!

Thanks, JHardman, for digging that out for me.

[seafarm]

Hi Everybody,

I just discovered this thread, and since it’s my products you are talking about I’m going to stick my 2 cents worth in.

We have segmented our algae products into two lines – aquaculture and aquarium products. They are both sold under the Instant Algae label. The aquaculture products are sold by the liter and are called by their latin names – such as Nannochloropsis. The aquarium products are sold in a variety of sizes, down to 100 mls, and are branded by function – “Rotifer Diet� and “Coral & Clam Diet�.

The aquaculture products are more dense, for example the Nannochloropsis (18% dry weight) is a 3600 formula (makes 3600 liters of standard density algae) while “Rotifer Diet� (5% dry weight) is a 1000 formula, so about 27% the density – but they are both just Nannochloropsis. The “Coral & Clam� (5% dry weight, 1000 formula) is similar to the aquaculture “Shellfish Diet� (9% dry weight, 1800 formula) but also contains Nannochloropsis.

We dropped the density of the aquarium products because a few customers were running into problems with the high densities and using too much, or having to throw a lot out at the end of the 3 month shelf life. Our products have been developed for commercial hatcheries that go through bags or cases of Nannochloropsis each day - not for aquariums. The lower densities and smaller bottles make our products more viable in the aquarium market.

In terms of rotifer production, you should be able to produce about 500 million rotifers from 1 liter of Nannochloropsis, or 140 million from 1 liter of “Rotifer Diet�. If you are going to be producing a lot of rotifers I would definitely by the Nannochloropsis aquaculture product. It is less expensive and you can split the bag into several small bottles and freeze the remainder. Nannochloropsis can be frozen for several years without any significant breakdown.

About lighting, rotifers don’t physiologically need light but they are phototrophic (will swim towards it). We maintain our rotifer cultures at between 6-9,000 per ml (yes, those really are the right numbers) in a completely black tank. We do that because it reduces the amount of unwanted growth from bacteria and invasive algae (algae spores can carry in the wind and get just about anywhere). We do use light as part of our filtration system to keep the rotifers swimming at the top of the filters and not setting out.

A couple of thoughts if you are having problems with your rotifers – lower the salinity and use Cloram-X or Amquel to control ammonia. We dropped our salinity to about 20 ppt and are getting MUCH better rotifer growth rates than at 30 ppt. We also have a constant feed of Cloram-X to detoxify the ammonia, which rotifers produce abundantly. Cloram-X is pretty cheap and well worth the cost.

Regarding HUFA’s, components like EPA and DHA can be very important to larval fish survival. There are a lot of powders and liquids available for doing enrichment but you run into three problems: 1) it takes a LOT more time do add the additional step of enriching, 2) these products are “messy� in your tanks and can easily foul your rotifer cultures, and 3) the bio-availability is typically pretty low. Fish larvae get their nutrients from zooplankton, which get their nutrients from microalgae in the form of phospholipids. Many of these enrichment products are made from fish oils and the fish have already converted the phospholipids into triglycerides which are not easily digestible to larvae so they don’t get good uptake. There are a lot of claims that you cannot properly enrich larvae without these artificial “super diets�, but if that were the case there would not be many fish in the ocean.

So that’s enough from me tonight. I'll monitor this thread and be happy to answer any questions that come up.

Randy Reed, Reed Mariculture

[oceanarus]

Thanks for the detailed insight Randy. Good to hear from someone who grows rotifers for a living.

Looking forward to getting my package on Wednesday

[JHardman]

Originally posted by oceanarus
Thanks for the detailed insight Randy. Good to hear from someone who grows rotifers for a living.

Looking forward to getting my package on Wednesday

Ditto, but my package will be here on Thursday.

BTW, Randy has provided me with excellent customer service. I placed my order yesterday a national holiday, and he took the time out of his labor day weekend to provide me service and information when I had no expectation of anyone even working.

[oceanarus]

Originally posted by JHardman
BTW, Randy has provided me with excellent customer service. I placed my order yesterday a national holiday, and he took the time out of his labor day weekend to provide me service and information when I had no expectation of anyone even working.

Ditto