Are my T5's enough par for sps? See my values. (pics)

[chirocato]

I've been reading a ton lately on light intensity/spectrum trying to find answers to my problem. My sps look very pastel in color. They grow great, have awesome polyp extension but weak colors. I am wondering is it my light intensity or should I be looking for something else??

My system is a 150 display sps. Ever since I set it up I have had problems with coral colors fading to pastel like and my coralline looks like faded Pepto Bismol. And none of it grows on my rock. I'm am wondering...do I have too much light. Is that even possible?? I ask this only because the corals in the lower light areas actually have deeper richer colors. I am running a retro 8 x 80 watt T5 setup with indiv. reflectors. All bulbs are overdriven on Icecaps. Lights are approx 3" off the surface. I've done some par readings with an Apogee sensor which I have read typically under rates par levels by like 10% or so. Tank is 60 x 24 x 24.

I am running 5 ATI Blue plus, 2 GE 6500k, 1 ATI Aquablue Special 12K.

My params are: Ca=395, KH=9, Mg=1290, NO3=0, PO4=0.01(Hanna meter), PH=8, Temp=77.8. I overskim and have roughly 50X turnover for flow.

What do you think?? Please pardon my crappy camera pics.






Is this birdsnest growing away from the light or did my friend just have 1 too many beers the other night?





This is a sweet millie colony that is supposed to be BLUE! Grows great with glowing blue tips but remains brown in color. Frustrating.

[ReefRockerLive]

The pastel colors are usually caused by low nutrients, which is a good thing. You can darken them up a bit by either adding more fish or feeding more often. Dosing amino acids will help darken up the corals too.

[barjam]

Pale SPS in a T5 tank seems to be a common theme, no idea why. I have read that the apogee sensor is the most "off" in the blue/red spectrum so I suspect your numbers are off by more than 10% (as in it would actually be higher than your readings), don't quote me on that. It was stated in the thread were the ATI guy talks about the new Pro Color builb, fyi.

[Chrisrush]

I agree with Reefrockerlive. I think that your lamps are fine, feed more and see how that helps.

[luke33]

You definatley have more than enough light so I wouldn't worry there.

[chirocato]

Thanks guys for the replies. Will up the feeding and see how things look in a month or 2.

[madadi]

I have the same bulb combination as you in my tank,
anyway. i have the same problem, pastel, way over skimming. i feed a lot though and no improvement. i have a theory that radiation caused by the MH bulbs actually make them color up real nice and darken, just like we get a tan lol. no proof just speculation though

[fijiblue]

madadi - I think there is a lot of truth in that statement. I too would agree with you and have said that on a previous thread. Im glad to see someone else thinks that as well.

[barjam]

I don't think so on the radiation. UV has been shown to not affect coloration (UV protective pigments are clear) and in tests where they block 100% of the UV (on MH) there is no appreciable color change on the colors.

My pet theory is that we are underestimating the blue plus bulbs and lump them in with "actinic" bulbs when really they have the same par output as daylight bulbs.

Per measurements done on the bulbs, your GEs put out 340 at the bulb and the blue pluses put out 311 (Grim Reefer par thread). If you factor in the meter undervalues blue you could probably say they are even closer to each other par wise.

Do you really intend to have 8 overdriven daylight bulbs over your tank?

There is a thread floating around here somewhere were a guy swapped out his blue plus bulbs for super actinics (overdriven unit like yours) and the colors of his corals colored up almost immediately. I believe JetCat was the guy although I can't seem to find the thread. I was impressed.

Maybe corals don't like having almost all of their light at 460nm with very little in the other spectrums?

One last thing, was the coraline ever decent looking? Is this a recent bulb upgrade? When I went from crappy no name T5 bulbs to ATI blue plus/ATI Aqua Blue I bleached everything in my tank and the previously purple back/sides turned white and died. The coraline had a harder time growing over the bleached areas than the bare glass so scraped it all off and started over.

[shikhyung]

Hi,I have a T5 Nova 216 watts (4x54) in 100gallons tank, do you think it is enough to run some SPS ? If no, what should I upgrade, or at least adding up to save some cash? Thanks, Shin

[chirocato]

Originally posted by barjam
I don't think so on the radiation. UV has been shown to not affect coloration (UV protective pigments are clear) and in tests where they block 100% of the UV (on MH) there is no appreciable color change on the colors.

My pet theory is that we are underestimating the blue plus bulbs and lump them in with "actinic" bulbs when really they have the same par output as daylight bulbs.

Per measurements done on the bulbs, your GEs put out 340 at the bulb and the blue pluses put out 311 (Grim Reefer par thread). If you factor in the meter undervalues blue you could probably say they are even closer to each other par wise.

Do you really intend to have 8 overdriven daylight bulbs over your tank?

There is a thread floating around here somewhere were a guy swapped out his blue plus bulbs for super actinics (overdriven unit like yours) and the colors of his corals colored up almost immediately. I believe JetCat was the guy although I can't seem to find the thread. I was impressed.

Maybe corals don't like having almost all of their light at 460nm with very little in the other spectrums?

One last thing, was the coraline ever decent looking? Is this a recent bulb upgrade? When I went from crappy no name T5 bulbs to ATI blue plus/ATI Aqua Blue I bleached everything in my tank and the previously purple back/sides turned white and died. The coraline had a harder time growing over the bleached areas than the bare glass so scraped it all off and started over.

I'm with you on this aspect. All my coralline has done the same thing! Back, sides and rockwork also.

[ReefRockerLive]

shikhyung, on your 100g tank, I'd run at least an 8 bulb T5 unit with individual reflectors. If I'm not mistaken, the Nova fixtures only have a single reflector which is, IMO, equivalent to a 2 bulb fixture with individual reflectors.

[shikhyung]

In other words, I better off with the new fixture. Can you recommend one?

[sjm817]

I am running 5 ATI Blue plus, 2 GE 6500k, 1 ATI Aquablue Special 12K

That would be a VERY white/yellow look. 800w over a 150 is a lot too. I would swap out some bulbs and see what happens. Maybe 2 B+, 1 GE, 3 AB, 2 PA

[shikhyung]

Is this some DIY fixture or standard fixtures that you can get off the shelf?

[fijiblue]

barjam - no one said anything about UV. I believe we both stated radiations. There are more types of radiations emitted from bulbs than just UV.

[chirocato]

Originally posted by sjm817
That would be a VERY white/yellow look. 800w over a 150 is a lot too. I would swap out some bulbs and see what happens. Maybe 2 B+, 1 GE, 3 AB, 2 PA

Yeah I'm thinking that too. I have a bunch of half used up spares I'm gonna play around with and see how I like it. Thinking of going with...

3 PA
1 3k
1AB sp
3 B+

all mixed up obviously. What do you think?

[chirocato]

Originally posted by shikhyung
Is this some DIY fixture or standard fixtures that you can get off the shelf?

I run a retro (DIY)

[sjm817]

OOOPS. I read your bulb combo wong. That would not be a white look at all.

I ran a 3K for awhile. I liked it at first, but changed back to a 6000K and prefer it. I like the blues on the outside, white in the middle. Maybe something like:

front
PA
B+
PA
AB
6K
AB
B+
PA

Maybe swap in 1 more PA instead of an AB or B+ to cut down on the overall light.

[chirocato]

Yep, that's what I'm thinkin'

[hahnmeister]

chirocato PMed me yesterday on this, so I thought I would post here and see what you guys think of it. FWIW, I have seen halide tanks with the 'pastel' look as well. Right now, I have some corals that are 'pastel', and others that are richly colored... frags of the same coral, just different spots in the tank. From those PAR readings given... I say its too much light... way too much light.
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Re: Asking your opinion.
About T5s and the 'pastel look': Dont worry about it... its just something that seemed to happen frequently at one time earlier on with T5 users. Its not all that common it turns out (I never really had that problem), and I have actually seen it just as much with halides recently as with T5s. If anything, I have had more success with T5s coloring up corals with more intensity/pigmentation than with any halide bulbs.

As it turns out, my corals are doing the 'pastel thing' under my ushio 14,000K halide with my new tank. Too much light it turns out... corals are faded, sometimes even on the sand, and can RTN in a heartbeat if I move them. Their polyps are not as well extended as they could be, etc.

Thanks for the PAR readings... that Apogee just paid for itself though right there. In general, you could be growing your SPS on the sand from those readings you just gave me. Yes... much too bright. Now, I dont know how long your lights are on, but Im going to guess 8-9 hours. Yeah, those levels are very high. You could stand to cut back by about 1/3 I think. Depending on the corals you are keeping, maybe 1/2. 150-200 is more the average you should shoot for at the sand. Dont get me wrong... just like in my setup, there are going to be corals that love it, but those are in the minority most likely. The 470-500 at the top is on the high end. If it was a halide lit tank I might be okay with those numbers since they tend to be right under the bulb only, but very few corals, even light loving SPS, are going to even care for light above 400. And if they did, you would need to keep the waterflow very high to keep them shed the readiant heat and help provide nutrients at a rate to keep up with the speed of the photosynthetic cells. For the most part, captive corals are kept in lower light than in the wild... slowing the coral's metabolism if you will. Otherwise, the light charges the coral too much, and then we cant keep the nutrients coming fast enough. This imbalance can be deadly, even though not in the wild. In the wild, plankton is constantly feeding the corals, and the waterflow is immense.

Those T5s are some bright suckers, arent they? The Icecap doesnt hurt either.

Always acclimate new corals at the bottom of the tank though as well, moving them up over time so they can adapt to the higher light eventually. I have seen a few friends lose their new stuff because they decided to put it at the top right away... even if thats where it ends up in the end anyways, too much too quick can be very harmful.

Regards,
Jon
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FWIW, my system is alchohol dosed, so yes, it results in low nutrients, but I feed Rods Reef every day, squeeze some phyto in till the water is cloudy when the lights go out, and feed the fish 2x a day.

I have been working with Dana on this, and from those light readings... they would seem overexposed.

It seems that the spread of T5s (more surface area of the coral covered) allows them to get plenty of light under lower intensities than with halides. That has been my experience at least... corals responding under light levels that are 20-30% lower than under halides, most likely because the light is coming from more angles, less shadows, etc. Its like like a rotisserie for the corals.

[sjm817]

Since it is a retro, maybe kill 2 bulbs altogether. I've played around with a few combos over my 180 and have settled on this:

front
PA
B+
B+
6K
AB
B+

I would have swapped the 1st two bulb positions, but the way I wired my IC600 ballasts makes it better the way it is.

[chirocato]

I've thought of that too. Or instead of killing 2, make them PA's??

[hahnmeister]

I didnt complete my last post I suppose. I was trying to say that my previous results with T5 only resulted in some of the deepest, richest colors around, and that system was low nutrient as well (only 3 small fish in a 40B). Now, I have loads more fish at any given time, more food flying around, and the alchohol, even though it results in low nitrates and phosphates... it causes bacterial plankton to rise (very good for montipora and other small polyped SPS that dont even eat most of the regulat phyto). I can tell because the polyp extension on the corals that are higher-light demanding corals is very nice. But some of the lower light SPS are just fading out.

Ive cut my photoperiod down 1 hour already... might have to do more, but sometimes there is only so much you can do with reducing photoperiod alone... sunburn is sunburn... if a coral cant take a certain level of light, it doesnt really matter if its getting 4 hours or 8 hours, you know?

The other thing that helps greatly is to increase the water flow in the tank. In a previous tank, the corals overall were getting too much, but when I increased the turnover into the 90x range... everything lit up like firecrackers.

[sjm817]

Originally posted by chirocato
I've thought of that too. Or instead of killing 2, make them PA's??

Ya. Thats why I had 2 -3 PA's. Use those positions just for "actinic pop". The purple coraline on my rock is just insane. Its actually sort of funny looking its so purple. I need to get some more coral in my tank.