New Rule Discussion

[Jimbo327]

First of all,

I don't own a prop tank, I'm just a regular joe working a 9 to 5 with a 6 gallon nano, yet I love coming in here and looking at all the large greenhouses and what others are doing to help this hobby move from ocean to hobbyists. This is exactly what responsible reefkeeping was all about, or at least that's what I had thought. And for a new rule to be implemented in an instant without any feedback or discussion (because the thread was immediately locked), a lot of us need clarification of these rules. Hell, most of us don't even know what a commercial hobbyist is exactly and the rational behind the decision. Many are just afraid to speak up because the fear of being banned.

And I learn a great deal from looking at pictures of these great setups. How many times will we ever be exposed to geothermal cooling. Giant evaporative cooling fans and automatically adjusted louvers on greenhouses. That is just COOL! Seriously, I learn probably more in 1 thread in this sub-forum than 100 threads in all of the other sub-forums (excluding responsible reefkeeping, water chemistry, DIY). We should not alienate these group of reefers because their knowledge is probably way more advanced than the average reefer. Everybody likes to snap a few pix and show off their system, and discuss better ways to propagate.

I really don't know what else to say. I hope this thread doesn't get locked because we really need this to advance the hobby. There, I've said my piece. If you think my rant has some merit, go ahead and bump this, or add to the discussion. Mods are very welcomed to participate because that's where the dialogue should start.

Jim

[Csxno1]

[. Try them out...that's where people will be going soon.

I don't think so. BrianD

[Csxno1]

One more post promoting another site and you will be gone from this one. BrianD

[Jimbo327]

That's the whole point. A lot of us don't want these guys to go somewhere else, and take away all the knowledge and insight. Because if RC mods don't do anything to reverse this, then that is exactly where it will be heading to. A brain drain, and all will be left are a bunch of newbie hobbyists talking amongst themselves...which is not I want to read.

[rustybucket145]

Although I can see that there is a VERY fine line between what is considered a 'valuable' post to the community and a post that is commercial in nature it is often hard to tell from a moderator or admin standpoint.

They simply don't know what's being sent in pm's and what kind of coral selling is going on 'behind the scenes'. This site runs from ad revenue... if that main business model is undermined... bye bye Reef Central... I don't think any of us want to see that happen.

That being said I can also understand the added ad revenue that could possibly come from 'farm product' manufacturers advertising here. Ever seen a greenhouse manufacturer advertise here? I haven't. Only coral frag sellers and product sellers.... why? b/c that's the main audience of this forum. I saw the coral propogation forum adding tremendous value to the entire forum b/c it showed the average hobbiest the 'next step' so to speak. It basically said to me "... if you work hard... you can do this one day..". Not that I was money driven, simply driven by a hobby that I care deeply about. I truly believe that most 'greenhousers' are in the same boat (pun intended )

I'll admit I'm not a daily reader of the greenhouse threads but I do get a wild hair several times a year and spend a day or two catching up on the greenhouse builds...... I've learned soooo much by watching redox, raden.... and countless others go through their trials and tribulations right here in front of us!! It just doesn't get any better than that!! Poop on reality tv !! There are many concepts that are used in the greenhouse that can be applied to weekend warrior type hobbiests, and I appreciate them sharing with us.

I'm not saying that I'm leaving RC or that anyone should. This is the BEST reef community you will EVER find online. I don't see that changing anytime soon. I will however miss reading about the 'big boys' commercial or not. The RC community should be flattered that these guys take the time to post pics and valuable information about their setups here.

I wish all you greenhouse guys and gals the best of luck with your setups!! Maybe someday there'll be a plastic dome in my backyard and I'll have to track all of you down to get advice !!

[BrianD]

Here is a thought: discuss with Carlos the reasons for the rule, and see if an alternative method of handling it can be suggested.

My assumption would be that people have used pictures of their systems as a means of soliciting business. If you publicize that you are in the business of selling corals, posting pictures of your system is a pretty blatant way to advertise your inventory.

[Carlos]

Originally posted by BrianD

My assumption would be that people have used pictures of their systems as a means of soliciting business. If you publicize that you are in the business of selling corals, posting pictures of your system is a pretty blatant way to advertise your inventory.

That is correct. Lately, commercial hobbyists have been inundating threads here with pictures of their setup except the pictures are not of their setup but just picture closeups of their live stock. That is not a picture of a setup... it is a picture to solicit business.

If people would not abuse the forum, we would not be having this discussion.

RC takes great pride in the fact that when people read the threads, there are no commercial posts or commercial people trying to sell them something... I don't see why this forum should be different.

I am sorry that one bad apple spoils the rest but it just cannot go on. If you have a better solution, I am all ears but right now, the rule stands.

Regards,

Carlos

[Jimbo327]

Thanks Carlos for joining in the discussion.

Is it acceptable if people post their setups without close-ups of their corals? Or having shots were it's not a close up, but more of a bird's eye view picture.

And here's another thought, what's the point of propagating if you are not going to share it (sell it)?

[Carlos]

Yes, that is fine.

There is a clear line between someone that has setup a home propagation tank and someone that has gone great lengths to setup an intricate system to farm corals for the purpose of selling them.

Sharing and selling are two different concepts here and the latter one is not allowed here at RC.

Lately I have seen an increase amount of pictures where the posters have an intricate system (hundreds of gallons of salt water tanks for propagation) and are posting pictures of their setup. Those pictures are not allowed as the main purpose of the pictures is not to show "how" they went about creating the setup but just to show the system and the hundreds of fragments they are culturing... inevitably someone will see the pictures and PM them for sale information.

If they were showing how the setup was done, they would have pictures of the plumbing, diagrams, system construction. Unfortunately they are not showing that. They are just showing the final product and then they throw in a few closeups of their corals... blatant sales pitch and definitely not allowed here.

I am also not here to get into a discussion about what is the point of propagating. I am here to discuss the new rule and the reasoning behind it. RC does not allow commercial posts, regardless of what the purpose of propagation is.

Carlos

[A.T.T.R]

what if the larger guys BLACK OUT the coral in the systems in the picts they post
i think alot of us are posting picts of the construction

sure i see a few heres my system picts but things like my thread are clearly constuction and provide a lot of info to others and also helps us get feed back for way to do things better

[JCTewks]

As someone just trying to get into coral aquaculture, i find it very helpful to be able to see what other farmers are doing and not doing so as to gleen what I can from people who have considerably more experience than me. In an industry where the day is soon coming that wild-caught corals will not be allowed into our country, and all new tanks will have to be stocked with aquacultured corals, I see it as a dissservice to the hobby to dissuade people from starting new facilities...which is what will happen with this new rule. RC has long been a valuable asset to the reefing community, however, i think that not allowing anyone considered "commercial propogaters" to post any pictures is hurting the members of this board who come here to learn...as all of us do. I am a visual learner, and seeing pictures of a GH's prop tanks, or skimmers, or ventilation/heating/cooling system is very helpful to a propigating noob like myself. I don't see how posting pictures of the GH or it's hardware is in any way against the user agreement...it's not like they are trying to sell their evaporative cooler

I would like to see this new rule reversed or changed to only exclude the posting of items that the "commercial propogater" sells, while allowing pictures of the facilities and hardware. As the saying goes, " A picture is worth a thousand words". I personally think that build threads, and how to with pictures is truly valuable to this forum. Blatant disregard, and posting of pics of corals should be dealt with by first violation probation, second violation "moved on".

Mod's, please consider making a revision.

Thanks,

[Carlos]

Some people are not putting pictures of the construction of the system. They are posting pictures the corals they are farming... the facilities and hardware have become secondary.

As the saying goes:

"one bad apple spoils the whole bushel"

The rule has been implemented because some people have taken advantage of this forum. Don't blame the staff/mods for it, blame those who took advantage and made us have to go to such measures.

I stated before that RC prides itself on the fact that when people read threads, they don't have to skim through countless commercial posts. I don't see why this forum should be any different.

Carlos

[JCTewks]

All I'm asking is that pictures of actual system compnents and builds be allowed...throw the book at people who are trying to get free advertisement.

I've been following raaden's build thread, and he's still working out all of the kinks. He's now not posting pictures, even though no corals are being sold out of there, and his sales will be all wholesale anyway.

I'm interested in seeing how people growing in GH's deal with multple vat systems, protein skimming on a large scale, how temperature and humidity are dealt with, cheap circulation in a propogating system, etc...the new rul dissalows pictures of any and all of these things. Other than redox, who else is growing corals in a GH that is not commercial that we can learn from?

[Carlos]

If people can follow the rules, we can be open for discussion.

We would have no problem if people show construction of system pictures. Pictures that focus on the hardware AND how they put it together.

Pictures that focus on the corals or the end product which they are trying to sell would and will not be permitted (not open for discussion on that one).

So the question is, would people be able to follow the rules? Or will we have to go through all this again in a few months time because people are abusing the forum?

[icy1155]

I have 2 questions for you... what is the point of having an aquaculture forum if you cant post pictures of corals? And do you think that the individuals who dont run large operations just smaller systems wont get the PM's that you "Suspect" are sent to the larger places when the larger places arent allowed to post anymore? So far all I have seen is the admins targeting the farming operations because they "Think" that the farmers are using the forum for advertisment... not one example of someone who sold a coral due to pictures posted on here. Isnt it possible that people are simply posting pictures of their corals to show that they are growing well and that their greenhouse or whatnot is working?

[jerryz]

Not to belabour the obvious but a commercial operation actually has the word commercial in the name. To deny that they are selling something is nieve at best. If this was in another forum or was a catalog of their corals or contained pricing that would be one thing. But pictures that show their growth of specific corals in the context of how they accomplished this have to be allowed. A picture only is silly. I picture that explains something would be not only appropriate but helpful. Even if it potentially generates some revenue for this "commercial" business.

Additionally I'm not sure how the pictures are significantly different than the show me your .... coral in other forums. As I'm sure they generate plenty of PMs to the posters of the pics requesting either frags or the vendor they purchased from. In fact it seems rather hypocritical when allowed by "private" individuals that don't represent potential advertising revenue as opposed to "commercial" entities that do.

[raaden]

I don't want to start a fued here, but I do want to find out why this came about. I am not interested in having people pm me to see what I am selling, and I think I have made that clear in both the business plan thread as well as the Operations thread. What I am interested in is being able to share my experiences with others that might want to do the same things.

I can honestly say that I would never have attempted what I am doing without RC, as it is an invaluable resource. But I am very concerned that this is not just a don't sell stuff here plan, but is going to go even further in the future. What happens if the equipment sponsors also get upset and say that they no longer want pictures of peoples equipment posted because they are afraid that someone is going to want to buy from the person who came up with a new and better version of a skimmer or whatever. Does this then mean that we can no longer post our equipment either, and if so where does that leave this forum... text only??? That will be real helpful to a guy trying to start out.

I understand that "free advertisement" does not fit in with the new advertisers first angle that RC is trying to impose on us, but where does this idea that we are somehow making money off of RC come from. People have been doing exactly what Carlos is accusing us of doing for years in the coral forums. I thought that was the whole idea behind the 'look at the pics of my beautiful coral" posts that are all over that forum, and I have never seen anyone there disciplined.

Moreso why are the people who are trying to play by the rules being impuned with those who are not. I will admit I don't read every thread on this forum but I am don't see the widespread problems that you are describing, nor do I see threads popping up with people saying or even intimating that they are selling the corals that they are showing. If this is the case then there is no advertising going on. Even still how are you determining that anyone here is selling by contact from RC??? I could take a few guesses but I don't think that is going to get us anywhere.

The bottom line is that this rule and the fact that RC is

not open for discussion on that one

completely undermines why I was posting on here in the first place. I have made it well known that the whole reason I was trying to add to discussion here was that I am highly in favor of free information exchange. If this is no longer the case I am not sure where that leaves me, which greatly saddens me.

I have to completely agree with icy, The next phase of the information I wanted to put on here was to show different things that I am trying to increase growth and that would be absolutely silly without any pics. Without them how can I show that one propagation technique is any better than any other. What's to say that I am not just making it up (to "advertise" some product that I could be selling to do so).

[BrianD]

Originally posted by raaden
What happens if the equipment sponsors also get upset and say that they no longer want pictures of peoples equipment posted because they are afraid that someone is going to want to buy from the person who came up with a new and better version of a skimmer or whatever. Does this then mean that we can no longer post our equipment either, and if so where does that leave this forum... text only???

Your entire premise is flawed. This action had nothing to do with any sponsors, nor did any sponsors "get upset". Carlos explained why the actions were taken. If people choose to nurture other theories, there is little we can do to change that.

[GreshamH]

IMO and IME people have the wrong idea how much "power" sponsors have. Having been one myself for several years I can attest to not only being held to a different more harsh rule set(not that I didn't/don't understand why), but having no power to get RC to do anything other then help moderate our own sponsor forum RC is very unbiased when it comes to commercial posting, sponsors or not

[raaden]

I apologize for the statement, but I was just trying to make a point. The rule was vague at best, and there was no accompanying explanation given in the ruling that explained it. I hope you can understand how it comes across to most of us, and the feelings, atleast, I (and most likely many others) have about spending the time to get all of this information out.

This is a forum where posting pictures of corals is just as important as pictures of the equipment and facilities. If that rule had been in place 6 months ago we would never have gotten information from redox about how important a chiller was to his system. The knowledge was important because in his instance he could show pictures of his corals not looking as healthy before the chiller and when you look at them now you can tell from the way the corals look that things are very different lately. Yeah he could have shown us a picture of his chiller and even his inlet piping, or the thermometer showing cooler temps, but you have to admit that seeing the acro with no budding or polyp extension vs. the new pictures with his acros looking from the almost excessive polyp extension he has now helps to prove his theory that a chiller was a key ingredient in his system.

If the earlier premise is not correct than I have an even bigger lack of understanding about the new rule. If the intended purpose is to keep the forum from becoming a nuisance from commercial posts (which I completely agree with and appreciate) then that is what you should be enforced. I can tell you I wouldn't want to have to skip through 30 threads to get to the ones that I am interested in either. Is it absolutely necessary to create this blanket rule that there will be no pictures of corals in the forum, to do this. I would think that it can be done in a more refined way.




The reason for the previous post was that whenever a rule is put in place it means that somone (or group) was harmed or experienced negative feelings and doesn't want this to happen anymore. The problem is that we don't know what the issue really was. I agree there are many possible reasons why the rule was put in place. It could be any number of things: my statement earlier, some forum members felt that commerciality (nsw) was taking over the forum, maybe it was even that there were too many pm's being sent and it was overloading the servers. Whatever it was I am sure there is a better way to handle it.

[raaden]

I guess I was just hoping for a little democracy in the resolution of the problem. When it comes down to it the rule is in place, and we have to abide by it, the problem is that I think it greatly lessens the value of this forum and for that I am disappointed. I am not sure it solves the intended problem, but it is what it is. We either choose to accept it or go somewhere else.

[BrianD]

Please explain to me (because I don't understand) how limiting commercial hobbyists to only posting pictures of their setup (and not inventory of frags) "lessens the value of this forum"?

I could see that it would lessen the value to those who wish to sell their frags, but how does it harm the hobbyist interested in learning how to set up a frag system?

[raaden]

I tried to explain it in the post

This is a forum where posting pictures of corals is just as important as pictures of the equipment and facilities. If that rule had been in place 6 months ago we would never have gotten information from redox about how important a chiller was to his system. The knowledge was important because in his instance he could show pictures of his corals not looking as healthy before the chiller and when you look at them now you can tell from the way the corals look that things are very different lately. Yeah he could have shown us a picture of his chiller and even his inlet piping, or the thermometer showing cooler temps, but you have to admit that seeing the acro with no budding or polyp extension vs. the new pictures with his acros looking from the almost excessive polyp extension he has now helps to prove his theory that a chiller was a key ingredient in his system.

I was about to put this in the other thread but I agree it is better to keep it to one place so here is a suggestion.

I agree that a post showing a coral stating that this great new coral can be yours for $25 is a commercial post, and is not productive for a forum like this. But what if I wanted to post a picture of some coral that I am having great success with and want to use the picture to show that it is thriving in my vats. Is that not ok; would it be better if I had some text to go with it that described why I was successful, and included description of some procedures that I have been using to increase the success rate.

When I first read the new rule my first thoughts were something like the above, the first example was what you were referring to. But now it seems that even the second example which provides great value to the forum is not allowed either.

[BrianD]

That is definitely a good point you have raised. We need Solomon

[raaden]

Trust me I don't evny your position, I don't know what the answer is, but I would just like to see something that allows the intended purpose of the forum while upholding the ideals that RC is looking for. I understand what you guys were thinking about with trying to take the judgement out of the equation, but I would hope your good judgement is why you were chosen as a mod for the forum in the first place. Unfortunately I think there has to be some judgement involved. I can guess that no matter what rule you put in place someone is going to find a way around it.

That leaves Carlos, and the other mods, to use their discretion (which I am sure will be fair), but I don't think a blanket rule like it is stated is going to help anyone.