Mo Algae, Mo Problems

edrock200 · #1 02/16/2006, 10:05 PM

Hey guys,
I know you've said before that green algae is normal after the brown algae cycle on a new tank...and I'm sure this is annoying for seasoned members of RC to hear the same question, but is this much green algae normal?

I guess I've just never seen any startup reef tanks with quite so much green algae...I'm concerned that perhaps I'm doing something wrong...

The tank is a 72 gallon bow front with 180lbs of live rock in it and I think about 120 lbs of live sand. Theres a 10 gallon overflow which feeds to a sump with a wet dry system. The sump also has a eheim 2217 filter running bio, sponges and carbon (carbon is temporary to polish the water a bit). Also in the sump is an aqua-c remora protein skimmer.

There are two power heads in the tank in addition to the return from the sump fed by a rio 1700....the fish are fed brine shrimp and flake food every day to every other day.

In the tank is a copperband butterfly, yellow tang (tang police, I know I know, I didn't read up until after the tank got going, please no lectures, my friend made me feel bad enough) two small yellow clowns, a LM blenny about 50 snails of various types including turbos, and about 20 hermits. Tank's been running for about 6 weeks. Lighting is 2x150DE MH + 2x130 acintic PC for a total of 560watts. No corals yet.

Am I just freaking out? I feel like I"m cleaning the glass daily and even though it went through a brown algae cycle it was nothing like this...maybe just because this is so bright.

Thanks in advance,
-Ed

old salty · #2 02/16/2006, 10:10 PM

Mine looked pretty darn similar to yours. I put 9 zebra turbo snails in the tank, and the rock was bare in less than 2 weeks!! Afterwords, I took them back to the fish store, as they would have starved in my tank.

supertech3 · #3 02/16/2006, 10:11 PM

How long are you running your lights?

edrock200 · #4 02/16/2006, 10:31 PM

Lets see....7am acintics (sp?) kick on...10am MH's kick on...7pm MH's kick off...9pm acintics kick off and moonlights kick off...midnight is lights out. Because of the bloom though I shut off the MH's indefinitely. Do acintics promote algae growth?

edrock200 · #5 02/16/2006, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by old salty
Mine looked pretty darn similar to yours. I put 9 zebra turbo snails in the tank, and the rock was bare in less than 2 weeks!! Afterwords, I took them back to the fish store, as they would have starved in my tank.

Well that makes me feel better....at least I know I'm not alone! (or wasn't...lol)

supertech3 · #6 02/16/2006, 11:16 PM

IMO you are running the lights to long for no corals in the tank, try running the mh for about 6hrs a day actinics should not be causing all the algae growth, How long have you left the mh off?

Fast Fred · #7 02/16/2006, 11:31 PM

Looks to me like your sand has become a nutrient trap.

Pandora · #8 02/17/2006, 12:25 AM

Ed, you mentioned a lot of things, but I didn't see you talk about the age of the setup. It looks fairly young to me given the color of the sandbed (so I'll do a rare thing and disagree with Fred on this one

). You also mentioned you just went through a brown algae stage. I'm thinking I can bet this baby is less than 2 months old? They all go through these cycles (and speaking of which, check your parameters, isn't this tank still cycling?). Once your sandbed establishes itself more (no, they don't all become nutrient traps...hehe), things will turn themselves around. My tank looked similar at the 1 month stage, and it looks beautifully clean now, I only clean off the glass once a week or so.

Oh, one other thing to check... check your alkalinity & buffering levels (KH). Green algaes tend to grow better in more acid water. If your water is properly buffered and has a good calcium level, you'll start to see coraline outcompete it much faster.

edrock200 · #9 02/17/2006, 12:57 AM

Thanks for the advise. Yes the tank is a new setup, about 6 weeks old (only 4 with live rock and livesand in it.) My MH's have only been off for a few hours but I've turned that timer off until this resolves itself.

How does a sand bed become a nutrient trap?

Which test kit do you use? I bought a salt water test kit complete with test tubes but I'm fairly certain it doesn't contain kh or alkalinity.

old salty · #10 02/17/2006, 01:33 AM

I use Salifert test kits for my.....tests. They do the job; probably better than any all in one test kit. Currently, I have alkalinity, pH, calcium, and nitrate. The nitrate one I use more for my QT tank than the main tank.

My advice would be to get your alk, calc, and pH at the proper levels and begin using limewater for your topoffs. I did this at about the two month mark, and the coralline really took off from there.

Edit: Now would be a good time to get a clean up crew. Don't overdo it (like I did) and they will really assist in removing algae and keeping it away.

Bluemorningwind · #11 02/17/2006, 06:37 AM

You need a far far better CUC and much more effective partials. Removing detritus during partials goes a long way toward reducing pollutants.

Bluemorningwind · #12 02/17/2006, 06:46 AM

Also, replace the MHs with Fluros until you have a goodsom amount of corals to compete for light. No need for all that light. Only algae is using it.

MHs cause a lot of problems for people who have little experience and or knowhow. No offense.

You probably should have had corals in there a weeks ago. Along with a stronger CUC.

Rob Martin · #13 02/17/2006, 08:26 AM

Old Salty - ,
You refer to using "Limewater" for topoffs,can you explain what limewater is? not familiar with that in the UK
Thanks

whiirly · #14 02/17/2006, 08:35 AM

Limewater= Kalwasser Mrs Wages pickling lime is what I use.
Put in my RO/DI water let it settle them drip into my sump

Rob Martin · #15 02/17/2006, 08:38 AM

Thanks Whiirly,
I'll check that out.

edrock200 · #16 02/17/2006, 10:34 AM

Thanks for the advise...so my cleanup crew of 40+ snails and 20+ hermits isn't enough? How many do I need? As for the comment about MH being bad for newbies, I didn't know that, but I knew that eventually I wanted to do the harder stuff and wanted to set it up right the first time, ie not buy two lights. Regardless, I've shut off the MH's for now and just leave the acintics on since I have nothing to grow in the tank at present. I'll try the limewater and get a better kit. Thanks,
-Ed

Pandora · #17 02/17/2006, 11:24 AM

I don't think anyone said MH's are BAD for newbies, just that they are very strong lights, and you have to take into consideration everything else they will do.... like heat the water; right now, with no real corals in that tank and really, really strong light and heated water, those are ideal conditions for an algal bloom (what you are seeing).

Once the tank is ready for corals and you start getting that, and maybe some desirable species of macroalgae, that will help outcompete the algae for the nutrients. Right now, it's pretty much like they have free reign over your tank as its cycling.

The "nutrient trap" DSB idea is mostly theory, and does not happen to every tank... and it refers to a problem that happens much, much further down the road (at the 5 or 6 year mark) in SOME tanks... and even then, does not happen in many, many tanks with established sand beds. The idea is that there are lots of bacteria growing in your sand bed (what you are promoting right now, also known as "cycling") that break down ammonia into nitrite, nitrite into nitrate, and very slowly, nitrate into nitrogen gas, as the tank gets more and more established. The suspicion (and this has never been proven) is that some tanks lag behind this process in the last step or two as they age for many years and stuff accumulates in the sand, eventually causing them to go downhill at this point. This again is theory and a subject of much controversy here on RC, and the reason why some people have converted to barebottom... as a result, you'll hear some hostility towards sand beds from time to time.

I personally think they are both techniques you can be very successful at if you do them the right way, and that a rare case of an unexplained crash with no proven cause should not be a reason to shy away from sand beds as being evil, since there are multiple reasons for crashes at the 5-6 year mark (I haven't had this problem, and met many people who haven't after decades of good sand beds). I think everyone should make the decision for themselves.

edrock200 · #18 02/17/2006, 12:59 PM

Wow, thanks for the explanation. Luckily my tank stays right around 80 degrees and when I added the MH's this really didn't change...perhaps because I keep my house colder than most do. I'll try some of the recommendations here and report back, hopefully your thoughts are right and it's just part of the cycle.

edrock200 · #19 02/19/2006, 11:25 AM

Update: I've shut off my MH's and am only running the blue lights for now. The algae hasn't lessened but it hasn't gotten worse either. I will attempt to get some more cleanup crew today as well.

PatMayo · #20 02/19/2006, 01:42 PM

I agree with Pandora,
I have a new 90 AGa set up. I only turn my lights on for about 5 hours a day. thats it. If the algea starts to pick up I reduce that time even more. The fish don't need light. the algea does. I think your clean up crew is sufficient. They are just outgunned at this time. I would keep lights at minimum, do weekly water changes, and feed very lightly. (This is somewhat complicated by the Tangs)

I would also look into a skimmer upgrade. In my experience the Aqua C Remora did not work that great. Others however have had better experiences.

Regards,

Pat

edrock200 · #21 02/19/2006, 03:06 PM

Thanks for the info PatMayo.

The skimmer was doing average, and then I upgraded the pump and I'm emptying the cup about once a week now. Does that seem right for a lightly stocked 72 gallon with 20 gallon (10 gallons water) sump?

old salty · #22 02/19/2006, 07:04 PM

Lots of good info so far. Give it a few weeks for the algae to go away. It's only gobbling up stuff you don't want in the tank to begin with, so it's not all that bad.

What kind of snails are you using for a clean up crew?

edrock200 · #23 02/19/2006, 09:32 PM

Clean up crew is:
8 turbo snails from LFS
8 Hermits
20 margarita snails

and a 55 gallon "algae attack pack mega" from live aquaria which consisted of:
10 Scarlet Hermits
20 Mexican Turbo snails OR margarita (I never counted when I got it to see how many of which kind)
35 Dwarf red tip hermits
Not sure how many abalone or banded trochus snails (website says 2/12 whatever that means)
1 Black sailfin blenny

A few snails appear to have died here and there, I guess from falling off the rock and getting attacked by hermits, but I usually flip them over when I see them upside down.

edrock200 · #24 02/20/2006, 11:59 PM

Not much to update so far, algae is still pretty much the same, no worse, no better. I used a turkey baster to clean off the intakes on my power heads and that shook some of the algae loose as a side effect but that didn't appear to have any ill effects. MH's are still off, fish and water parameters seem fine.

One other question for seasoned members. My main tank is 72 gallons with no canopy (open top) and my sump is open top as well...I'm losing about 5 gallons a week. Is this normal? I do 5 gallon water changes every 2 weeks but I find myself removing 5 gallons and adding 10 to get the sump back up to where it needs to be.

PatMayo · #25 02/21/2006, 12:15 AM

edrock200,
I have a 90 gallon that has glass tops on it. I have a 30 gallon sump with no top and I add about 3/4 of a gallon of top off water per day. That equates to about 5.25 gallons per week.

I would add the top off water on a daily basis. This way your water parameters will stay pretty steady. Adding 5 additional gallons at the end of the week is a lot IMHO.

I add the 3/4 gallon to my sump each day. I do 8 gallon water changes every weekend and add exactly what I take out.

Your evap does not seem that bad for having an open top. I have glass tops on mine and I have about the same amount of evap. I have a skimmer that runs fairly wet, but overall very little water comes out via the skimmer.

I hope that helps a litte.

Regards,

Pat