Sulfer beads and denitrification

Lrgclasper · #1 08/11/2005, 04:17 PM

I am thinking about building a denitrification filter using sulfer beads and crushed shell. Heterotrophic denitrification can be initiated using sulfer as both a substrate and "food" source. Since the chemical transformation results in slightly acidic water, I would buffer with shells. Anyone have any experiences using sulfer? It is common practice in large public aquariums, but it seems most people only use DSB's or algae scrubbers in the hobby.

chrissenator · #2 08/13/2005, 05:26 AM

Hope this link is helpfull, in a week or two I start building myself Le Petit Reacteaur, it seems like an exellent sulphur reactor..
Time will show...

http://mars.reefkeepers.net/USHomePa...ionSoufre.html

Lrgclasper · #3 08/15/2005, 12:44 PM

Thanks, it seems very few hobbiest have caught onto this method. I wonder why?

Lrgclasper · #4 08/15/2005, 12:46 PM

I was hoping to close the reactor vessel so I would not need to use and overflow box. I wonder if there is a way to allow offgassing while maintaining a sealed container? I one-way valve perhaps?

Bill Wann · #5 08/16/2005, 01:23 PM

Hello

I have had a large sulphure reactor running for about 8 months and i love it .
I bought the big one from schuran ,the made my own . Pretty easy to make .
They work really well and you can get some pretty good flow through it after the bateria start to take hold .
It takes awhile to get dialed in . I find that I can increase the flow rate every two days and still mantain the orp in the reactor .
Its running on over 3000 gallons of water with a very heavy bioload .
Including alot of large tangs ,puffers ,lionfish and a large stingray .

Working good thus far .

If anyone knows a good place to get the sulphur media besides aquatic ecosystems let me know .

Bill

Lrgclasper · #6 08/17/2005, 12:24 PM

Bill, would you run one without the Orp tester?

Bill Wann · #7 08/17/2005, 01:40 PM

I would not try it , you need the orp to set the flow , you could guess but the meter makes it alot easier . It seems to go real slow for the frist mont or two then you can increase the flow to a good amount .
I think I have about 12 or 15 gallons an hour going through mine .
Bill

hahnmeister · #8 09/07/2005, 11:31 PM

sure, nobody could chime in when this was posted...lol

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=660352

hahnmeister · #9 09/07/2005, 11:35 PM

or this...
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=643330

I have seen the mars site before, but I am interested in a highflow recycling model like the korralin, or to use an eheim 2217, run in a loop, with in's and out's on the recirc plumbing.

I havent heard of needing an ORP meter however...whats the reasoning?

Lrgclasper · #10 09/08/2005, 12:35 PM

The end product from the Denitrification is an Acid, so I would imagine the ORP is checking the buffering after the water passes over your buffering media. (say that fast five times)

hahnmeister · #11 09/08/2005, 06:44 PM

Aaaahhhh, thats why the korallin uses a high-flow design and keeps recycling...it must make acid buildup pretty hard when the water is passing through crushed coral 50x per minute.

Roadtoad · #12 09/09/2005, 01:05 AM

The process of denitrification is that of reduction, that is why you need the ORP monitor. The oxidative-reductive potential of the water is the balance of the oxidizers and the reducers (or anti-oxidants) that exist in a balance in the water. Bacteria like those that remove nitrate must exist in anaerobic conditions partially because in the presence of oxygen (an oxidizer) or an oxidizing environment it is not energetically favorable to convert nitrate to nitrogen gas. There was an article in Science a couple of months ago that dealt with the different environments in marnie sediments and the energy-producing chemistries that the resident bacteria utilized. An ORP monitor/controller allows you adjust the flow to maintain the proper reducing environment to allow the bacteria to flourish and actually use sulfur to achieve denitrification.

chtan · #13 09/11/2005, 06:27 AM

I have used a sulphur denitrator reactor in conjunction with argonite sand (in another chamber to neutralize the sulphuric acid) .... works just as well as any denitrator but u got to be very careful about not over dripping or u will be messing up your tank .... a ORP controller wld be a necessity.

Actually, sulphur reactors are quite popular in Europe too.

Herbert T. Kornfeld · #14 09/11/2005, 08:24 PM

I planned on using cushed shells because they dissolve better with sulphur denitrators...

Lrgclasper · #15 09/13/2005, 07:10 PM

OIL RIG= Oxidation Is LOST; Reduction is Gained... haha the way I remember the reaction.

clownfish75 · #16 09/18/2005, 06:19 PM

I have a few running on my tanks, and they appear to work well, i would never run one without an orp setup as testing the nitrate/nirtite in the output water is very tedious and not very accurate. The instructions in the aquamedic units state that an ORP between -50 and -300 are the approx values you are looking for, if it goes above -50 ie posative the you are producing nitrite if it drops below -300 you produce hudrogen sulphide.

I have also found that trying to run it without a meeting pump (peristaltic pump) is near on impossible so am working on some small metering pumps to get better control of the water flow.

Adn finding the sulphur is a right royal pain in the butt, i have some that came from a mine in Canada at the moment so ill see how that goes.

Christian

Herbert T. Kornfeld · #17 09/18/2005, 06:49 PM

aquatic eco has the sulphur and the crushed shells. I have had a good amount of control by simply using a tap from the output line of the tank's main pump via 1/4" line that runs into my calcium reactor. I would prolly do the same for the denitrator...and use a simple pinch valve for the control. The other thing is that nobody said that the flow had to be on all the time...what about putting a powerhead on a timer so that it only comes on for a minute every hour...and a flow restrictor on that as well. That way your ORP controller could be set to turn off the powerhead if it goes below -50.

What do you guys think of the milwaukee combo pH and ORP controller? I need a pH controller, and now if an ORP controller is in the picture, its only $60 more if bought as a combo. Any experiences with milwaukee metering instruments? And reason that I should go pinpoint instead?

Uel · #18 09/19/2005, 04:31 PM

The Milwaukee will not run in the negative range. My lfs has been trying to come up with an automated system for some time. He has finally settled on the AquaMedic orp computer(pricey) and a small pump instead of the manual drip line. I'm currently running a AquaMedic denitrifier and have been for years. They work!! I'm intrigued by the sulphur concept. The AM doesn't require any more feeding than a sulphur model. I have added denniballs twice in 5 years. It sounds like the sulphur has to be replaced every couple of years as well. The comment about the need for an orp probe is right on. If you drip the water too fast you actually create nitrate, too slow won't remove it and will release hydrogen sulphide (not to mention the smell). I am currently selling some frags to pay for the computer and a tunze kit (hint, hint). I'll keep you posted on how it works.

Herbert T. Kornfeld · #19 09/19/2005, 05:54 PM

What do you mean the milwaukee wont run in the negative? ORP I assume? So its useless for saltwater?

Uel · #20 09/20/2005, 09:08 AM

No, they are designed for running ozone or simply measuring your tank's oxygen level. In order for the denitrifier to work properly you have to create an oxygen free, or in reality extremely low, envrionment. The same as the DSB concept. The milwaukee will not regulate the pump because you have to turn it on at -330ish and off at -200ish. It is just not designed to work in the negative range. My lfs guy actually switched the wires and made it work, but I don't trust pulling it apart and jury rigging it.

Herbert T. Kornfeld · #21 09/20/2005, 10:42 AM

Odd, because the range on the device is -1000 to 1000...so just the control part is locked out? Odd.

So what is an ORP meter I can use?

Uel · #22 09/20/2005, 02:41 PM

It can measure that range, but it can't control a pump. http://www.aqua-medic.com/products/p...=mV%20Computer
This is the only one I know of that is designed to be used with a denitirifer. They have a smaller mv controller, but my lfs guy was told by AM that it won't work with a denitirifier.

Herbert T. Kornfeld · #23 09/20/2005, 04:18 PM

Well thats some messed up stuff. No ORP controllers that can have their control ranges set to negative values? Well, at least they can monitor still correct? I suppose I could always adjust the throughput manually as long as it could still give a reading...so now I should just look for an ORP monitor, not a controller.

Uel · #24 09/20/2005, 04:32 PM

I have a call in to AquaMedic to verify the lfs guy's info. I've never known an lfs guy to give out misinformation

Yes you can use a meter and manually adjust the water flow (drip rate) like you do with a calcium reactor. You have to check 2-3 times daily and especially 1st thing in the morning. Sometimes it will smell awful and you have to be careful in that situation. Open it up to much and you will deplete the tank of oxygen. It's the same reason for not stirring a DSB. It would be nice to have it automated and not have to worry about the kid next door screwing things up while your on vacation.

Uel · #25 09/22/2005, 09:30 AM

I did speak to AM yesterday. They said the controller will work, but by the time you buy all the things included with the computer the price is the same. The computer comes with a probe and has a self calibration feature. He said the pump you use will also last longer with the computer, because you can set a range instead of a single point. The controller would have the pump coming on and going off almost continuiously. I think I'll just save up and get the computer.